Yulia Navalnaya grew up in Moscow in a simple Soviet family.
Her parents were both engineers, and her father died when she was 18.
Transcript:
Alistair Campbell
Time. When you were growing up, were you somebody who had strong political views?
Yulia Navalnaya
You know, me and Alexei, we grew up in Soviet Union. Our childhood was in Soviet Union. But our formation, as I can call it, when we were teenagers, so Soviet Union fallen. So we are children of perestroika, I could say. And Alexei and me, we have very simple families, normal families, but families who were very involved in politics because there were years when everybody was involved in politics In Russia, but there were like few years, unfortunately.
Rory Stewart
Yulia, what did your mother do? What did your father do? What were their jobs? When were they born? Where did they come from?
Yulia Navalnaya
My mom is engineer. She was born in Moscow. My father was born in Moscow as well. He's engineer as well too. My father died when I was 18. And my mom, she still lives in Moscow.
Alistair Campbell
When I met Dasha in Oslo, she was me that Alexei's parents still live in Russia.
Yulia Navalnaya
They are. Both of mine and Alexei's parents, they are still in Russia. That's right. How (Time 0:07:10)
Alexei's Early Political Life
Alexei Navalny's political involvement deepened when Vladimir Putin became president.
Navalny expressed his disapproval of the regime from the outset.
Transcript:
Rory Stewart
Bit about the beginning of Alexei's political life. Tell please the listeners a little bit about how he started, what he got involved in, why he got involved.
Yulia Navalnaya
He was all the time involved in politics a lot. And when we met, we discussed politics a lot. I think it was one of the reasons why he married me, because it was interesting for him to discuss politics with close friends and then girlfriend and then wife. And I'm interested in politics in all my life as well. And when Vladimir Putin became a president the first time, he just came to me one day and said, like, you know, I really probably remember this moment. Like, you know, I decided to go to be more involved in politics, like not kitchen talks, but participate to one of the, at that time, pro-democratic parties. And I want to do something because I'm against this regime from the first step. I'm against Putin and it's very important for me to do this. Was (Time 0:09:40)
Putin's KGB Past
The Navalnys never believed Putin would bring positive change, recognizing his KGB background.
They understood that Putin's power structure mirrored the Soviet Union's.
Transcript:
Alistair Campbell
There ever a time when you or he thought that Putin might be moving in a democratic direction? Or did he decide very, very early on that he was as bad as he became?
Yulia Navalnaya
Became the president, or I would say even in power, like prime minister the first time. Because comparing to Yeltsin, who still, we should agree, brought democracy, but after that, there were some problems with him. But still, Putin was very young, very active, very enthusiastic, and people who were less involved in politics and just seen this young, strong, full of strength men. And they were hoping that it would change a lot. But it wasn't with us like this because, of course, as people who were a little bit more involved in politics, we knew that everybody knew. But still, Putin is KGB officer and all this structure, which was in Soviet Union, it was obvious that he's going to bring it back to Russia. So no, we never thought in our family, we never thought that there could be any positive changes after Putin became a president. (Time 0:10:56)
Growing Fear
Yulia Navalnaya's fear for Alexei grew gradually alongside his political trajectory and increasing popularity.
She recognized the inherent danger but prioritized supporting his cause.
Transcript:
Alistair Campbell
Yulia, when did you first fear that Alexei's political activity might actually lead to him being such a target that the regime would murder him? When did that first cross your mind that he was swimming in very dangerous waters?
Yulia Navalnaya
You know, as we started our conversation from our young years, I would say I almost never thought about or had any fear because we grow up together. It's not just about our age. It's about Alex's political growing. That's why I've seen it, not like, you know, it became suddenly. I've seen it from day to day, like he became popular blogger, like he became the blogger who has supporters, like he became the person who established small NGO, anti-corruption NGO. Like he became candidate of mayor of Moscow. Like he became the person who established the biggest NGO, anti-corruption NGO in Russia. He started to have not like, you know, a couple thousands of supporters, but a dozen of thousands, then hundreds of thousands, and then millions of people who were just following him. Like he became a presidential candidate. It was like, you know, so step by step that at every point of time, I just had this feeling like I understand that it could be dangerous but I knew that it's Alexis life that he was really Person who really believed in everything who was doing that's why you know I just realized very quickly that it's very important to support him. He's doing the right things. He wants to make Russia a better place. He wants to do all the war a better place. That's why I just wanted to support him. (Time 0:14:21)
Social Media and Politics
Alexei Navalny effectively used social media, particularly Twitter, to disseminate information and connect with supporters.
He planned to leverage TikTok's popularity in Russia, which Yulia found daunting.
Transcript:
Rory Stewart
Did you learn from how social media has changed the world? You talked about being a blogger, but now we're in a world of Facebook, of Twitter, of all these type of communications. How does this change the way that politics is done in Russia?
Yulia Navalnaya
It changed a lot. Because, for example, my husband is a very good example to explain it. And he started like blogger and like in live journal. If you remember, it was such a platform and it was very popular in Russia. Then he started many of other social media, but especially Twitter. He really liked Twitter. And I think that he was very good at it. How does this change the way that politics is done in Russia? It. And Twitter was a very good platform. And I liked it very much because it was all the time very easy to get information very fast. It was very easy to find all the news. And it was obvious that people who write on Twitter and have a lot of subscribers, they are very good in, you know, putting together all the thoughts when it was able just to put short tweets. And I just loved it. And I loved Alexis' jokes. And I think that he did with social media very well. But it's also because, well, coming back to your question about how social media has changed the world and many other things like other medias. For example, again, about my husband, why it happened. Because when he became a popular politician, he was blocked from everywhere. That's why he has no choice to use new social media. And he was, in this case, very lucky to live this time. Otherwise you know when you have just radio blocked TV blocked and then you don't have any other sources but at the time he started to do politics and he very quickly was blocked from everywhere He all the time was trying to new in new sources from which he is able to bring this information to his supporters and to attract new people. For example, when we were coming back from Germany after his poisoning, he told me very seriously, and I was a little bit scared that he believes in TikTok. TikTok is a very big platform now, and he is going to develop and put a lot of attention in TikTok because he thinks that it's very important platform now in Russia and it's very important For him. Why I was scared? Because he usually tries to involve me in such kind of things and I was just expecting how I need to do a lot of TikToks to think, to open my mouth or to change my cloth probably every day. (Time 0:16:44)
Return to Russia
Alexei Navalny's return to Russia was driven by a deep sense of purpose, wanting to set an example for others.
While acknowledging the risks, they tried not to dwell on the possibility of his murder.
Transcript:
Alistair Campbell
You said that when you were in Germany after his poisoning, was there no part of you that thought there is a very, very high chance when he leaves, they've tried to kill him. He survives. He gets treated in Germany. Angela Merkel visits him. It's a big part of the book that you've done together. But when he went back, there must have been a very large part of you that thought this is like him imposing a death sentence on himself. They are going to kill him. Did you ever try to say to him, if this costs you life, is it worth doing?
Yulia Navalnaya
You're probably asking me this question because you never met Alexei. Because I knew that it's very important for him. And it's not just words to come back to Russia, to be the example for all these people. It's not, you know, about like, usually you are doing some things, of course, to show the example. He wanted to be this example. He was this example for all these people. And he was sure that people are watching him. And he knew that he must be in this first row. Of course, we knew that it could be dangerous. Of course, we are not crazy. And Alexei wasn't crazy at all. He was very rational in a good way. And he, of course, think he weighed all the risks but you know sometimes the history makes the other direction of course we knew and it was really very realistic that he would happen to Be in prison. But about, you know, murdering, we never thought or probably try not to think. Tell (Time 0:19:46)
State of the Opposition
Opposition in Russia is severely suppressed, with imprisonment for even minor acts of dissent.
The most vocal opposition figures are now primarily in exile.
Transcript:
Alistair Campbell
Is the state of the opposition in Russia now?
Yulia Navalnaya
To say the truth, it's almost not possible to do anything inside Russia against Putin because you will be thrown in prison. You know, probably the case is when people happen to be in prison just for standing on the street alone, like lonely protest with the sheet of papers where it's written no war and they Are taken in prison for these. They could be in prison for likes in social media. They could be in prison, of course, for the post in social media. That's why, of course, situation inside Russia, very difficult. Speaking political situation, I mean, for position. That's why the most loudspeakers now, of course, in exile. Okay, (Time 0:22:59)
Vision for Russia
Yulia Navalnaya believes in free elections and democratic procedures.
She is less focused on specific individuals and more on systemic change.
Transcript:
Rory Stewart
Help us, Yulit, when you think about who could replace Alexei and what the opposition could look like in the future, what is a model or a way of understanding how over the next five or 10 Years people can challenge Vladimir Putin and create a different Russia?
Yulia Navalnaya
Everything by ourselves and to ask world community as well to help us. But of course, I understand it's about Russian people, first of all, to make everything Vladimir Putin will gun. And after that, it's about fair elections. As I have already said, I'm not thinking about persons, I'm thinking about fair elections and procedures to make all these procedures democratic. (Time 0:25:24)
Penal Colony Conditions
Alexei Navalny's penal colony was a small, isolated space with harsh conditions and limited contact.
He was kept alone, his communications censored, and his family visits restricted.
Transcript:
Rory Stewart
Julia, can you tell us a little bit about this penal colony? Where was it? What were the conditions he was living in? What sort of place was it? Who else was in the colony? What other kinds of prisoners there were? How his daily life was?
Yulia Navalnaya
I will start from then, probably from the last penal colony, because he has changed several. Not he, but he was moved from one to another. But you ask me a really funny question, who else was in this penal colony? Because usually, when we speak about penal colony, we can imagine the group of people who are living together, who work together. We can imagine a nice, for example, sport yard, which we usually see in American Hollywood movies. It's not the same in russia sometimes it's the same but for my husband they did the most severe conditions which could be it was a small room a really small like three to three meters then It was another room not a yard just another room where he was able to walk this room just didn't have a roof that's it and he wasn't allowed all the food they brought him to this room he wasn't Allowed to lie on the bed all the day and he wasn't allowed almost wasn't allowed to have any meetings like we have short meetings and long meetings with his family for more than one year He wasn't allowed to make a telephone calls like at all all the letters from him and to him were censored for example speaking about Dasha she wrote him about her university about courses Which she is going to take for another semester and they just burned this letter saying that it's like a kind of things which he couldn't get. I'm not speaking about my letters. I could write anything, just very simple things about my regular life, but they could censor it. I think, of course, it was about isolation. They wanted to isolate him from the people. They knew that he is so charismatic. He is such a strong politician. He is very good in convincing people. He is very nice in speaking people. That's why there were just few people all the time, the same people around him. That's it. And there were no any prisoners with whom he was able to communicate at all. (Time 0:33:17)
Putin is Not Russia
Yulia Navalnaya emphasizes that Vladimir Putin does not represent all of Russia.
Many Russians oppose his regime, the war, and his authoritarian rule.
Transcript:
Rory Stewart
Final question, Yulia, what do you think sometimes foreign audiences do not understand about the situation in Russia? When you read foreign commentators talking about your husband or talking about Putin or talking about Russia, what are some mistakes? What do you think the West sometimes misunderstands about the reality in Russia?
Yulia Navalnaya
I think that the most right answer will be that Vladimir Putin is not russia and russia is not vladimir putin it's very important to remember that there are a lot of people who are against This this regime who are against vladimir putin who against the war and when you live in democratic country and you have a president you think that and you believe that he has been chosen By majority of population of your country. (Time 0:46:14)
