Michael Wolff gained White House access in 2016 after expressing interest to Trump, who mistakenly saw it as a job.
Wolff's presence was accepted due to Trump's lack of oversight, allowing him to observe almost everything for seven months.
Transcript:
Alastair Campbell
So Michael, thanks for being with us. And Rory, why don't you kick us off?
Rory Stewart
Yeah, well, Michael, will you just begin by giving us a sense of that access and how you got that access and how you got to find out so much about the first Trump administration?
Michael Wolff
Well, I'm not sure how I can say how I got the access as though there were some secret. There was no secret. I kind of in 2016 expressed interest and Donald Trump was like, sure. In that way in which nothing in the Trump world is particularly thought out, I was just there. I said, you know, I'd like to do this. And he kind of shrugged. I was brought in. I said, you know, I'd like to come in as an observer. And he thought that was a job. And then I said, no, no, no, I want to write a book. And then he couldn't be less interested. So it was like, OK, yeah, sure, sure, sure. And that was my pass for basically seven months in the White House. And no one really knew why I was there, but they just assumed that if I was there, I was there for a reason and under someone's approval. So just by keeping my mouth shut and smiling, I saw, practically speaking, most everything. And that's now, you know, seven years ago began this relationship with many of the people around Donald Trump, all who had a need, a driving need to talk about their experiences, because Everybody around Donald Trump has an understanding that this is strange, weird, not right, even if they're part of it.
Alastair Campbell
Do you have any indication? I mean, I assume that the access is not as good now as it was, because they basically threw the book at you when you wrote the first book.
Michael Wolff
It's actually better, I would say, because I know so many of these people better. And over this period of time, the relationship becomes more than, you know, source and journalist. I mean, we're kind of, we're kind of friends.
Alastair Campbell
But they're also some of them see you as an enemy because you exposed the monstrosity, the absurdity, the ridiculousness, the incompetence of the whole operation. You (Time 0:03:00)
Trump's Headline-Driven Actions
Trump's actions are driven by a need for headlines, escalating to increasingly radical actions.
This behavior, similar to his first term, is unsustainable and may lead to his downfall.
Transcript:
Rory Stewart
These same people being kind of normal. Michael, so much to talk about, because this is obviously the central topic almost of our age. But I think one of the most bewildering things is the way in which he seems to have changed from somebody who from 2017 1819 seemed like a kind of buffoon but who wasn't necessarily doing Anything very radical and it's quite difficult to point to what he actually achieved that was any different i think you've actually pointed this out that a lot of it felt like Mitch McConnell's Agenda. To where we are now, where we're talking to you at a moment where really it feels like an existential threat to the world order, where if you're speaking as we are, you know, from Europe, You're looking at somebody who genuinely feels like he's tearing up some of the most fundamental aspects of the last 80 years.
Michael Wolff
Well, I don't know. I might challenge that. I mean, I think fundamentally, one of the things about Donald Trump and the people who have known him well over a long period of time, all kind of go to this point is he doesn't change. I mean, he does the same thing over and over and over again. He doesn't grow. He doesn't rethink. He doesn't come up with new desires, really. To the extent that it seems different now, it seems clearer or it seems faster. It is still fundamentally the same operation, Donald Trump looking for a headline. And it's headline, headline, headline. And I'm not sure. You know, I think if you go back and look at the first month of the first Trump administration, there were similar kinds of things. You know, we were banning people from these countries. You know, that whole series of announcements and executive orders, you know, a lot of which involved Steve Bannon at the time. You know, some of that happened, some of it didn't happen, but it was, again, mostly governing by headlines, which is where we are now. I mean, and to interpret, yes, I mean, it could be that the world order, as we know it, will never return. But it could equally be all of this is a kind of a punk rock provocation to no ultimate point. And with the likelihood that it collapses in on itself, which I actually think will happen. And I think, you know, Elon Musk now is performing the Steve Bannon role. Steve Bannon lasted six months. I think probably Elon will last no longer than six months. (Time 0:06:00)
Trump's Inner Circle Dynamics
Figures like Stephen Miller's importance in Trump's circle are overstated.
Individuals matter less than their willingness to please Trump, with 'yes people' holding more sway.
Transcript:
Alastair Campbell
The Fire and Fury came out, Michael, I interviewed you for GQ magazine. And you said at the time the two people who were there who were the most important people to, besides Bannon was kind of on the way out, were Hope Hicks, this young woman who was kind of looking After him on, you know, sort of logistics and making him feel good and so forth. And the other person you mentioned, I watched it again this morning, was Stephen Miller. Now, of course, he is still there. He has endured. Is he somebody that we should be looking at more than some of these other characters that we spend a lot of time talking and thinking about?
Michael Wolff
No, I think that's one of the mistakes that people make around Trump, to look at the people around him and elevate them in some kind of specific and knowledgeable way. This is the person, this person is smart. They don't matter. No, nobody matters but Donald Trump. Everybody exists in his orbit and everybody really exists in their willingness to please him. And as soon as they stop pleasing him, they fall out of favor and usually fall out of are usually usually gone, except for actually the girls. And Hope Hicks was the fundamental person of the first Trump administration. And now, you know, in this new book of mine, I wrote right about his relationship with this woman, Natalie Harp. (Time 0:08:42)
Natalie Harp's Role
Natalie Harp's role is to comfort and validate Trump.
She spends nearly every waking hour with him, raising questions about their relationship's nature.
Transcript:
Alastair Campbell
Tell us about her because she says she has one of the most the weirdest jobs I've ever heard about in any political operation.
Michael Wolff
She has no real job except to attend to Donald Trump, to comfort Donald Trump or cushion Donald Trump, or to be the ultimate, the ultimate yes person to say exactly what he wants to hear At any given moment in time. And she has done this. I mean, she came into the campaign in 2022 as a kind of a fetch it girl. I mean, just really, you come in, you're in turn, you run errands. She has risen to, I would say, to be the most important person around him, like Hope Hicks. I mean, she is certainly the person who spends the most time with him. I mean, fundamentally every waking hour, which led to a lot of speculation on, well, is it just waking hours? And then that led to speculation, does he really do it anymore? And with the answer being probably not, but he continues to surround himself with these women, all who look alike. Michael, (Time 0:10:11)
Unsustainable Actions
Trump's escalating actions, like halting USAID's budget, are unsustainable.
These actions create widespread disruption and raise questions about their long-term consequences.
Transcript:
Rory Stewart
Let's just sort of take one example to try to help listeners get what's going on. So let's take USAID. So that entire $45 billion budget has stopped. 10,000 people have lost their jobs. I mean, they're quite literally being pulled out of embassies all around the world. NGOs received successive stop orders over the last three weeks. So vaccination programs are stopping, emergency feeding stopping. Governments are teetering. Governments like Jordan that relied on $10 billion American money. Like Nepal that were relying on the U.S. For its funding. Help us understand this and help us how that works with the fact that he's breaking congressional rules. He's ignoring judges.
Michael Wolff
At it as the escalation of headlines. And one of the problems of ruling by headlines or existing by headlines is that the headlines have to get bigger and bigger and bigger. That's what we are seeing now. I have to be bigger. And this is always the Trump, a Trump refrain, give me more, bigger. But I think it also presents another danger to Donald Trump. It is difficult to imagine how this is sustainable and not just the U.S. Aid abroad. There is on every level. Now, we are into a level of doing things that if you say, OK, let's play this out. How does this work? What happens from here? I think the answer is, well, you don't know. You can't even begin to imagine what happens here, which probably means that it's unsustainable and that it collapses in on itself. And that in the not too distant future, Donald Trump finds himself in a very, very difficult situation. (Time 0:11:22)
Trump's Resurgence
Despite previous predictions, Trump's return to power highlights his unique ability to rebound from disgrace.
His denial of reality, including losing the 2020 election, fuels his resurgence.
Transcript:
Alastair Campbell
Michael, so with that interview that I did with you a few years ago, I asked you in this battle between the good guys and the bad guys, and we kind of both agree who the good guys are and who The bad guys are, who's winning. You said the good guys, I think the good guys are winning. And the reason we thought that we both thought Trump's not going to win. But then you went on to say, and I agreed with you at the time, he said, I don't think he'll run again. And if he did run again, he definitely wouldn't win. And there's another event we did together. You said, Donald Trump's not going to go back to the White House. He's going to go to jail. Now, he has won again.
Michael Wolff
Well, he he lost again. Wait a minute. Let's let's you have to parse the episodes here. He did lose. Yeah, but he didn't go away. No, he did not go away. But he he left the White House. Remember where he was. He left the White House in disgrace. He was impeached twice. He was rejected by every significant figure in his party, not least of all Rupert Murdoch, who it appeared that he depended on because of the support of Fox News.
Alastair Campbell
And he won again.
Michael Wolff
Which he did. And then he rose again. So, you know, it's one of the things, one of the extraordinary things, one of the things that I get to write about and why I write that he does these things that no one can imagine how this Could have happened, that he could have this utterly disgraced figure could have risen again. (Time 0:15:11)
Trump's Showmanship
Trump's 14 years as a reality TV star shaped his political approach.
He thrives on conflict and attention, constantly seeking new ways to engage his 'fan base'.
Transcript:
Rory Stewart
Things that bring him down again. Apologies, Michael, what is it about us that makes him able to flourish and live? What is it about his supporters? What is it about social media? What is it about the modern age that allows this thing that you've just pointed out that is completely sort of unimaginable to happen? He's an extraordinary showman.
Michael Wolff
I mean, let's remember what's the fundamental thing about Donald Trump? What's the thing that distinguishes him from every other politician who has ever walked the earth? He was the star of a reality television show for 14 years, not one year, not two years, 14 years. And, you know, reality television is a very fixed formula. You know what has to happen in order to maintain the interest of your audience. Conflict, conflict, conflict. You just have to constantly invent new conflict. And it doesn't have to mean anything, this conflict. You just have to say, well, who's going to prevail in this situation at this moment? Michael, (Time 0:17:50)
Murdoch and Trump
Rupert Murdoch personally dislikes Trump and initially dismissed his presidential ambitions.
Murdoch's support of Trump through Fox News is a bitter irony, driven by its dependence on Trump's audience.
Transcript:
Alastair Campbell
You mentioned there that he felt slightly dependent upon Murdoch and his newspapers and Fox News that became such a big part of the kind of drive for MAGA. And then after January the 6th and the insurrection, Murdoch sort of pulled away. And then he realized that Trump wasn't to go away and he fell back in with him. Just give us your interpretation of the character of Murdoch.
Michael Wolff
Well, Murdoch hates Trump. I mean, as far back as when I spent a year interviewing Murdoch, you know, Trump was like one of those tropes that he would bring up as, you know, one of the foolish celebrities who populated The tabloid world. I don't think at any point he ever took Trump seriously. And when he became friends with Trump's daughter, Ivanka, and son-in Jared Kushner, that was a kind of running, running theme that Ivanka's father was, you know, not remotely a serious Person. When Ivanka took Murdoch out to lunch to say her father was going to run for president, he waved it away as too ridiculous to spend a moment of time even talking about. And then when he was elected, I mean, it became, I think, one of the great bitter ironies in Murdoch's life, his dream of electing a U.S. President. And the person he elected was was effectively Donald Trump. January 6th. That was it. He not only wrote Trump off, but really rejigged Fox to make it what he believed would be impossible for Trump to ever run again. And the Ron DeSantis bubble was largely of Rupert's making. And one of the things about the election, I think, is this was a sort of a test. Who needed who more? Did Trump need Fox or did Fox need Trump?
Rory Stewart
Which it turned out Fox needs Trump. There is Rupert Murdoch, who I guess would consider himself or would have considered himself unbelievably realistic, ruthless. He believed he had a finger on the pulse of the right wing public. He felt that he understood politics and media better than anyone. And he'd been at the game for 40, 50 years. And his conclusion was this man Trump is a joke. And he believed it twice. How did somebody like Murdoch with all that knowledge, all that power, all that sort of Machiavellian instinct, get it wrong? What did he miss?
Michael Wolff
Let us give Rupert his due. He is 94 years old. So he isn't the Rupert that we used to know. You know, I think that Rupert has never been a man in the television age. And, you know, another bitter Rupert irony is that Fox becomes the thing that he will be most remembered for Fox News. It's the thing that he was least involved in creating. Fox remade the world in a way that Rupert Murdoch fundamentally didn't recognize.
Rory Stewart
All right, Michael, Alisa, quick break and then back for more. (Time 0:18:55)
Trump's Motivation
Trump is motivated by personal attention, not transactional gains.
His primary goal, as stated by himself, is to be the most famous man in the world.
Transcript:
Rory Stewart
Back to Trump, of the things that people commonly say about Trump, the cliches about Trump. I don't know. He's transactional. You know, he's never going to allow anyone like Musk or Vance to remain around for long if they get in the way of his ego. Which of the cliches about Trump do you think are wrong?
Michael Wolff
Well, I don't necessarily think he is transactional. I think there's only one thing that motivates him and it's personal attention. When I first interviewed Trump, I had known him for years before in New York, but in his new political life in 2016, when it still seemed preposterous that he was going to be, would ever Be elected president, I said, okay, okay, just tell me why you were doing this. And he said, and he was perfectly comfortable with this, he said, to be the most famous man in the world. So I think that in everything that he does, this is what he's after. So there's never an idea of the transaction. OK, you know, I'm going to get a slightly better deal than you are. I mean, yeah, this is sort of in the background. But in the foreground is I'm going to do things which give me more attention. Michael, what else do we get wrong? What other things (Time 0:25:34)
Misinterpreting Trump
The media often misinterprets Trump by focusing on political issues.
His motivations are not political but rather driven by a desire for attention and a 'fan base', not a political base.
Transcript:
Rory Stewart
Do you sometimes read or hear people say about Trump, which are repeated as cliches?
Michael Wolff
I think the media has always treated Donald Trump as though he's in politics, that the issues here are ultimately political issues, policy issues, legislative agenda issues, Washington, D.C. Sort of issues, the bureaucracy, et cetera, et cetera. But I don't think that any of that is true. He doesn't think that way. He's not interested in those things. Politics itself, I mean, he either has no interest in or has contempt for and sees himself as being so much greater than. I am greater than that because I can command an audience. You politicians, you have no idea what you're interested in these petty legislative things. I have a base. And when he says a base, he doesn't really mean a political base. He means a fan base. I have people who are devoted to me, who just like to see me. Their pleasure is in me doing what I do.
Alastair Campbell
You start the latest book with a quote from Jared Kushner. And again, going back to the first time we spoke for GQ, you described Kushner and Ivanka as an utterly preposterous couple who had no place in the White House. But you use this quote where you ask him kind of what Trump's future is. I think this is in 2021. And he says, what was Nixon's future? What did he mean by that?
Michael Wolff
Well, I think he understood that his father-in had left the White House in disgrace. He had been rejected by everyone who had previously supported him. He had no political future. You know, he blew it.
Alastair Campbell
So he's proved him wrong as well. He's proved them all wrong. Yes.
Michael Wolff
Well, as I say, he proves them right, and then he proves them wrong. You know, when I was writing this book, you know, and I wrote it in real time, which is why it's come out so quickly after the election. And that worried me. As I went along, I was thinking, well, you know, I don't know the end of the story. But then I realized if he lost, you'd read what I wrote and say, well, of course he was going to lose. But if he won, you would read the same thing and say, of course he was going to win, which is this strange poetry of Donald Trump. (Time 0:26:50)
Trump's admiration for Putin
Trump's admiration for money and Putin suggests a possible desire to be the world's richest man.
This could explain his actions towards making America as corrupt as Russia.
Transcript:
Alastair Campbell
Michael, you said earlier that Trump had said to you his ambition was to be the most famous man in the world. And he's certainly gone a long way towards that. Do you think it's also possible that the relationship with Putin can be explained by a desire to be the richest man in the world, which he currently think is Vladimir Putin? And that means that he has to turn America into a country as corrupt as Russia.
Michael Wolff
Yeah, I think there's a little of that. Certainly. I mean, Trump admires money above all else, I would say he admires. He does admire money.
Alastair Campbell
Why Americans not more upset by the stuff that's happening that to us just looks not even borderline corrupt, but outright corrupt, Musk's position... The conflicts of interest being decided by him and by Trump, the meme coin that he sold, the fact that foreign leaders can now just sort of ship their currency into that if they want to. This feels very corrupt.
Michael Wolff
Well, it is very corrupt. Why aren't people more upset? Well, I think that they will become more upset by this. That's number one. Number two, there is the Trumpian method here, which is whatever you are upset by now, I'm going to do something more egregious that will upset you even more today, but then successively Something else the next day. So it is very hard for people to get their footing. But remember, we're just weeks into this now. So again, this idea that I've said that I believe that this is unsustainable, eventually, so much is piled on that it begins to collapse.
Rory Stewart
I don't want to chase our tails too much, Michael, but when you're listening to Alistair and me asking you questions, is there something that's frustrating you there? I mean, if you were to talk to a friend after this interview and say, they kept asking me these kind of questions, I wish these guys would get this out of their head. What's your experience of being asked about Trump? What are interesting questions and what are less interesting questions about him?
Michael Wolff
Well, since I've been asked every question that one could ever, ever ask, but I think it's very hard because he is the president of the United States. He has this enormous amount of power. He does things every day to demonstrate that. So the perfectly natural inclination is to treat him seriously, except he's not a serious figure. So therefore, that juxtaposition is a hard reality. He must be serious because, because, but anybody who's ever spent any amount of time with him knows that he is absolutely not serious. I mean, not serious at any level. He doesn't care about any of this. He doesn't care what happens in the next two minutes. He's just at best an entertainer and everything that he does in any moment is about capturing your attention, making you listen to him. That does not equate in any sense to what we think, what you guys think, what most people who do what we do for a living think of as a serious person in a serious historical position. He's a joke. OK, (Time 0:32:10)
Dealing with Trump
World leaders should wait Trump out rather than engaging with his attention-seeking behavior.
Treating his presidency as a passing storm is the most effective approach.
Transcript:
Alastair Campbell
So essentially you're saying don't take him seriously. But if you're the leader of another country, if you're the prime minister of Canada, the prime minister of the UK, the president of France, the chancellor of Germany, leaders in Asia, You have to take him seriously, because he's the president of the United States. But if you were suddenly to morph from being a writer and a chronicler into an advisor of one of those people, what would you actually say to a Keir Starmer or a Macron or a Mertz how to deal With this guy? What's the best way to deal with him? I think you just wait him out.
Michael Wolff
I think you want to not make the mistake of engaging in the show that he wants to put on. Then you become just a bit player and he's going to use you as he can. If you don't, if you just stand back and say, listen, this is a, we're just in an unfortunate and difficult period of very bad weather, but it will pass. (Time 0:38:18)
