Trump's Gaza plan involves taking over the Gaza Strip, removing its residents, and redeveloping it.
This radical proposal breaks with decades of U.S. policy on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Transcript:
Alistair Campbell
Hello, welcome to a very unexpected episode, a live stream of The Rest is Politics with me, Alistair Campbell.
Rory Stewart
And me, Rory Stewart, and we're both straight back off a plane. We were in Syria yesterday, then in Beirut, and we're just back. And while we were on the plane, in fact, the White House tweeted out, the US will take over the Gaza Strip and we will do a job with it too, President Donald J. Trump, which is the reason for this podcast, to try to get into that a little bit. Shall I do a very quick attempt to summarize what Donald Trump at least is saying before we get into what it actually means for the world? So that's the first bit, this clear statement, the US will take over the Gaza Strip and we will do a job with it too, which was from his standing up press conference with Netanyahu. And then there were a series of other comments that he made. Benjamin Netanyahu is of course visiting the United States at the moment. He said, U.S. Would own Gaza, be responsible for dismantling all of the dangerous, unexploded bombs and other weapons on the site, level the site, get rid of the destroyed building and level it out. And then he suggests very clearly that the people who currently live there, as the Palestinians, whose territory it is, whose country it is, being relocated to Jordan and Egypt. Initially, it looked like this might be, if people were being optimistic, a temporary relocation, so that he was going to move them out while he rebuilt Gaza and they would come back. But on being pushed further on that, that doesn't seem to be the idea anymore. He said, I envisage the people living there, the world's people. I think the entire world, representatives from all over the world will be there. Palestinians also will live there. Many people will live there. And on the US's relation to this territory, he said he saw, in inverted commas, a long term ownership position. Right. I'm going to stop there. Might mean in the real world outside Trump's head. I think we've become so used to Donald Trump in just a few short weeks that we forget about just how these things are supposed to happen. So we just take a step back for a second. What would normally go into a US president making a new announcement on a very radical new plan for Gaza?
Alistair Campbell
Well, the thing about this one is that you, well, it is a pretty much a reversal or a total upending of what has been the United States approach to Israel, Palestine, since the creation Of Israel in 1948. With varying degrees of success and enthusiasm, most American presidents have sort of taken on the responsibility of trying to lead towards some sort of settlement, which allows Israelis and Palestinians to live alongside each other. And Trump has essentially come along with this and said, no, we don't believe in that at all. What we believe is in turning the Gaza Strip into a kind of beach style, beachfront development that probably will be run by Jared Kushner. And if you think back, let's just think back a bit. Trump's first term at this stage, I just checked, at this stage of Trump's first term presidency, we'd got through the row about the size of the inauguration crowds. We'd had a few kind of mad personnel things going, oh, that's been repeated. And then we were into sort of, you know, Trump sort of trying to play around with Medicare and Obamacare and all that stuff. This time, this is just the latest a series of absolutely upending announcements. You know, we had Canada to be the 51st state, renaming the Gulf of Mexico. We're going to take over Greenland. We're going to take back the Panama Canal. We're going to have a global trade war. And now we've got this. Now, everybody's saying this thing. It's become a bit of a cliche. You know, you have to focus on what he does, not what he says. But what he says is a signal. You talked about inside Trump's head. That's where a lot of this stuff is happening. One of the most laughable parts of his press conference, whereas he talked about, you know, how much he'd read history. I mean, according to people who know Donald Trump, he's never read. He hasn't even, he didn't even read the book that he wrote, never mind any other sort of great history books. He doesn't necessarily understand this. He doesn't even try to understand this. He even talked, Roy, I don't know if you've heard the bit where he said that, you know, I've looked at all the pictures, I've got a better understanding of what's happening in Gaza than Anybody. Well, you don't have a better understanding of what's happening in Gaza than the people who recently have been walking mile upon mile upon mile because hey guess what donald they do Want to go back to their homes even though they've been demolished they do want to live there yeah so what he's done is is essentially saying this is now america and bear in mind rory part Of his shtick to become president again was no more wars. We're going to be out of the wars. But what he's done today, I think you could make the case, has exacerbated the possibility of the ceasefire not holding. I think it's exacerbated the possibility of the Saudi-Israeli normalization situation being set back. (Time 0:02:30)
Four Futures of Gaza
Gaza faces four potential futures: Trump's unrealistic plan, a pessimistic status quo, an optimistic internationally-led rebuild, and a realistic Palestinian Authority-led reconstruction.
The realistic approach, though challenging, offers the best chance for actual improvement.
Transcript:
Rory Stewart
Let's just do a quick, I guess, summary of where we are with Gaza itself. So Gaza was, of course, where the horrifying October 7th attack was launched from. And Gaza has been the site of this unprecedented Israeli retaliation in which Israel has killed almost 50,000 people, including a lot of women and children and of course a lot i think We're i think we're above that now i think i think the latest figures is way above that okay so it's this is the gaza we're talking about and it's a gaza in which 70 perhaps of buildings maybe 80 percent have been destroyed the economy has there's an image for people watching just as a sort of reminder of of what looks like and you would you would have seen this in drone footage People would have seen this in in many images but that's a before and after shot here's another before and after shot and so it's a situation which the economy has collapsed uh water's Gone electricity's gone people have gone from being in a middle-income country to being one of the poorest countries in the world dependent on uh international food aid yeah so there Are broadly speaking four things that could happen to gaza uh there is the realistic there's the pessimistic there's the optimistic and then there's the Trumpian. So the Trumpian, we've heard a bit about, and you've explained that. And you're quite right. I mean, he talks about it being a lovely piece of property on the Mediterranean with lovely weather, and it could be a Riviera. And I think in his mind, he seems to think that he's going to just redevelop it as a property developer. And it's going to be a fancy beach resort. And when he says the world can live there, I guess he envisages it as a sort of one of those islands off the coast of Dubai. So let's kind of park that for a moment. Then we've got the pessimistic. The pessimistic is that Israel wants no responsibility for Gaza and wants to spend no money on Gaza. It also, for security reasons, wants to control the borders into Gaza, and it wants to be able to launch strikes into Gaza whenever it feels threatened. And in that scenario, Gaza will probably continue indefinitely to be one of the most horrifying places on Earth. The super optimistic scenario, which is the scenario which Britain and the international community has been trying to get to, a scenario in which Israel at least accepts that Gaza Should be reconstructed, facilitates it by allowing the borders to open, allows political structures to be put in place, and then maybe with money from Saudi and UAE and some support From Egypt and Jordan and with the United Nations and international players, there is some sort of post-conflict reconstruction plan for Gaza. And then the realist position, which is probably the toughest of all, but is the one that's most likely to lead to things actually improving, is the situation which would be very difficult For Israel, which was a situation where you would have a genuine Palestinian authority in charge in Gaza, because I don't think Saudi or UAE are going to want to provide security, challenge Terrorists on the ground. It would have to be Palestinians doing that, Palestinian authority. It would have to probably be there with the consent of Hamas or it would be in a civil war an armed civil war with Hamas and the reconstruction would happen brutally slowly um but it would Be led by the people of Gaza and then and then finally you've got the Trump position (Time 0:08:31)
Trump's Unconventional Approach
Trump's Gaza announcement deviated from typical protocol, lacking legal consideration or international consultation.
His approach mirrors a property developer, prioritizing aesthetics and economic potential over humanitarian and legal concerns.
Transcript:
Alistair Campbell
Over back to you I mean you you said in your earlier question you know what would in normal times, and of course we all accept now we don't have a normal president, but in normal times what Would have happened? You would have had a sense of this coming. You've got, everybody knew that Trump was going to be seeing Netanyahu. Even before the meeting, the White House were briefing the press that this was going to be looking at a long-term plan to try to rebuild, end the war, rebuild Gaza, get people back into Their homes. So even within the White House, that was where they thought they were. And then you had this sort of almost like a kind of unfolding drama. You know, I said on the main podcast that we put out this morning that you've got to think inside Trump's head as though he's in his own never-ending reality TV show. The Canada Tariff show, that didn't go totally according to plan. That Trudeau guy, he hit back a bit harder than I thought he would. So I presented it as a win, but deep in his heart, he knows that wasn't great. Need a new story today. Oh, I've got Bibi coming in. Let's do something really big and dramatic about Gaza. So he was sitting at his desk signing a few executive orders, and he sort of started to float the idea about, you know, maybe the Gazans just have to leave Gaza. And then by the time he got to the press, then he did another one when he had, Bibi was in for a little sort of fireside chat, the cameras came in, he developed the plan a little bit more, and Then come the press conference, out with all this absolutely amazing stuff, the US will own Gaza. Now, the thing is, normally, an American president who's going to make a big policy announcement would get a bit of international humanitarian legal advice. Excuse me, Mr. Lawyer, is this legal? And anybody who knows anything about international law would say straight away, no, Mr. President is not. Give a damn about that you go back to the geneva convention the rome statute of the international criminal court all of these things will tell you you cannot do this because you're you're
Rory Stewart
Ethnically cleansing you're ethnically cleansing a population you're forcibly moving a population that doesn't want a civilian population a population that doesn't want to move And in this case, an entire ethnic group. Correct.
Alistair Campbell
Correct. In fact, to be fair, you've been saying for some weeks that what he said about moving all the Gazans into Egypt and Jordan is ethnic cleansing. And so it's illegal. It's not clear where you get any authority at all for it. And the way he presented it really was a case of, you know, you can take the property developer away from being a property developer, but you're never going to stop Trump talking and behaving Like a property developer. The whole thing was, we're going to build these beautiful homes, you're going to have some amazing, create all these amazing jobs. And then this idea that, you know, we've just come back from Syria, as you say. And I was talking to a friend on the way back from the airport and I said, you know, it's amazing being in Syria. People just coming up to us when they recognize that, you know, we're clearly not Syrian. They're just coming up the whole time saying, welcome, welcome. Nice to have you here. And this friend of mine said, yeah, the exact opposite reaction that they get whenever they try and go anywhere. And so Trump's fine about saying two million refugees, what's not to like about it? But, you know, build a wall in Mexico. And it's just, it's like it's happening over there without, a bit like the AIDS thing that we talked about in the main podcast, the PEPFAR, no concept of the impact that this actually Has on real people, real families, who right now, as if they haven't been through enough, have to wake up and find Donald Trump wants to turn this into the 51st state. (Time 0:12:30)
Impact on US Allies
Trump's plan impacts key U.S. allies, with Jordan and Egypt facing potential instability from absorbing displaced Gazans.
Saudi Arabia and UAE likely won't support the plan due to their reliance on U.S. defense deals and the need for regional stability.
Transcript:
Rory Stewart
He's doing it in the place which has, of course, been the center point of much of the instability of the world for the last 80 years. Absolutely. And he's doing it with probably the four most important american allies in the world so involved in this are jordan egypt israel and saudi yeah and he doesn't seem to have consulted with Any of them the only one who's who's happy is israel because netanyahu takes this as and this probably is the biggest story hiding under this whole thing is what didn't happen in the press Conference and what didn't happen in the press conference was any significant pressure on netanyahu to formalize or make a ceasefire no and netanyahu will have taken away from this He has a complete carte blanche from trump to do whatever he wants which is why which is much more extreme language than even actually Smotrich or Ben Gevier have so far.
Alistair Campbell
And it's why we've said many times that in a sense, you kept saying, why is Netanyahu? Why do they keep on with the bombing? Why are they doing this? The answer is they were waiting for Trump. Trump has arrived. I mean, one of the most fulsome tributes to Trump came from Ben Gevier. And he said that, you know, he's absolutely right. The only solution to Gaza is for the Gazans to leave Gaza. And then they can settle.
Rory Stewart
And this, of course, is what Smatric has been quite explicit about in the West Bank as well, where he has, you know, he refers to the West Bank as Judea and Samaria. And he says that the Palestinians who live in the West Bank either submit or leave or will be killed.
Alistair Campbell
As does the new American ambassador.
Rory Stewart
As the new American ambassador. He also refers to Judea and Samaria. Yeah. I don't think he's said the stuff about being killed here. But I think the, so we've got Israel. If we look at the other countries, Jordan, Jordan already has a very fragile situation. Its economy is in trouble. It's been hosting a huge number of refugees already, a million refugees from Syria, millions of Palestinian refugees historically. The majority of the population in Jordan is of Palestinian descent. Refugees, it would totally upset not just the Jordanian economy, but it would mean that Jordan was living with an overwhelming majority of its population being Palestinian. And those Palestinians would be so angry with the Hashemite monarchy that Jordan would become seriously politically unstable. So it's not an option for Jordan. Now, Egypt, I think, is in a slightly different position. But Egypt, for other reasons, historically, has not wanted to have a very large Palestinian population imposed on it, partly because it's economically fragile, it doesn't want more Refugees, and it doesn't want more instability. Saudi, again, can't really countenance this. I mean, Saudi wants still, despite the unreliability of trump and the way he behaves a defense deal with the us they still somehow think it's worth trying to push for some kind of security Guarantees out of the united states but they can't sign up to something of this sort what they will probably do and what uae will probably do is is not say a great deal that explicitly you'll Get some from ambassadors. (Time 0:16:03)
Risk of US Inaction
Trump's Gaza plan risks exacerbating the situation by creating an excuse for U.S. inaction and further aid cuts.
This could lead to unbearable conditions in Gaza without U.S. involvement and resources.
Transcript:
Rory Stewart
The one of the things that i think is a real risk here probably the most likely risk so i think let's assume i mean i've been wrong about things in the past but it seems at the moment that the Overwhelming likelihood is this isn't going to happen. Because how could it happen? I mean, you'd have to send in the U.S. Military and drive Garzans out at the point of guns. And you have children and women being driven out by American soldiers into countries that don't want to take them. So assuming he isn't actually going to do that, he might. He might, I suppose, conceivably. Let's assume it's not going to happen. Then the problem is this, that he's been talking about it now for longer than we think. I mean, he's crystallized it today, but he started on this a couple of weeks ago, and actually Jared Kushner was giving some versions of something that sounded similar a few months ago.
Alistair Campbell
Yeah. The waterfront in Gaza could be very valuable, he said. Israel should move them out and clean it up. Yeah.
Rory Stewart
So part of the problem is that if, for better or worse, Donald Trump has got this thing stuck in his head and he begins to dig in and it doesn't happen and everybody rejects it saudi rejects It uae rejects it jordan rejects it egypt rejects that the ghazans rejected the likelihood it seems to me is that he then will get uh angry and he will use this as a justification to do absolutely Nothing he will say i produced my plan you didn't like my plan there is now going to be no u.s support there's going to be no u.s money unruh is shutting down jordan's not getting any money And remember jordan 40 percent of key parts of its security and government budget rely on the united states yeah that'll be cut off and he will use this as an excuse uh to do something which Will make the situation in gaza unbearable because i'm afraid the brutal reality is that without the united states there is no incentive really for saudi or uae to get involved their Main reason to get involved is not actually that they want to help Gaza, it's they want a defense guarantee from the US. Europe, in its current populist mood, feeling that its economy is struggling, is not going to lean in and take the full responsibility on Gaza. Israel is not going to do anything to facilitate, certainly Hamas having any role, but probably not the Palestinian authority either, if Smotrich and Ben-Gavir have anything to do With it. They want the fighting to start again. And so what we've really heard, basically, is Trump saying Gaza will remain in horror for the next four years. (Time 0:24:43)
Gaza as a Luxury Resort?
Trump's vision for Gaza is likened to a luxury resort, ignoring the historical and cultural significance of the land for Palestinians.
The proposal evokes comparisons to historical expulsions, highlighting the insensitivity of relocating 2 million people.
Transcript:
Rory Stewart
Yeah.
Alistair Campbell
There was a very – the ambassador during his first term, a guy called David Friedman, he was another one who was saying, this is great, thinking outside the box. It needs something to break this. And he then, I think, sort of slightly gave the game away because he was clearly sort of so excited by the whole thing. And he went, is this Mara Garza or Garza Lago? And this notion that you can just turn something like the Garza Strip. No, listen, by the way don't get me wrong if you could you know we were in bay route yesterday yeah last night and this morning and it was quite i found it quite astonishing you're driving Them through the through the city you've got this incredible beautiful view down to the mediterranean you've got some fantastic sort of scenery you've got wonderful buildings. And then every few hundred yards, you just see this bombed out building. Okay.
Rory Stewart
Which has been hit by an Israeli. Hit by an Israeli in recent weeks. Yeah.
Alistair Campbell
And so, and you think, yeah, well, I could see why maybe you wouldn't want to come here on holiday without still going on. You know, the fact that when we went to Syria, we did so having been given the very formal advice by the foreign office, this is not a clever, not a very sensible thing to do, as it happens, Felt where we were perfectly safe. Now, the point I'm making is that you can see why the idea of a big vision to turn this into something more positive, more economically vibrant, so fine. But to do that at the expense of 2 million people being told they've got to move from their homeland. And also, I'll tell you the other thing, which I think goes to the heart of this. I've told you before about a discussion I was involved in with Tony Blair and George Bush and Dick Cheney. And we were talking about democratization. And I made the point that every time you people talk about democracy, the world hears you saying America. You think everybody wants to be like America. And I think particularly now with Trump in power, I think an awful lot of people do not want to be like America. And this idea that the people of Gaza are going to go, wow, we could get a casino. We could get a golf course. Maybe Donald trump will drive his his little his little you know mobile thing me bob on the golf course they want their own place they want their own culture they want their own they want Their own future and they want to be able to build it i mean there's one small thing which is i mean which is just another (Time 0:27:28)
Oversimplification of the Issue
Trump's plan oversimplifies the Gaza situation, failing to address the underlying political and security issues.
He doesn't consider the complexities of property ownership, displacement, or the desires of the Gazan people.
Transcript:
Rory Stewart
Well i i think the reason it's sort of fits them with the zeitgeist is that it's completely zeitgeist is it's completely uh abstract um it's got i mean it's got no, the thing it doesn't. So you can sort of, as you say, imagine that if you were sitting in Mar-a and looked quickly at a picture on a screen, you would say, okay, this looks absolutely terrible. And then he says, you know, the war's going to continue and people are having a miserable life. So wouldn't it be better if they lived somewhere else? And we cleared all this and made some nice new buildings. And he can probably develop that a bit more. And if you really wanted to play out the Trump position, you could say, well, actually, Gaza doesn't have the complicated religious claims that Jerusalem has, for example. It's a very very interesting bit of territory with a strong history but it's not bound up in the same way that that um it's not part of the historic state of israel and it's not it's not where The prophets dome of the rock was located or any of this stuff right the problem is that it's just not listening to anyone talking about any real people yeah the heart of it is he's not asking Himself what well what do the gazans think you know what would they do or you know we're going to move everyone to each of the would the egyptians and jordanians accept this but (Time 0:32:40)
Escalation Beyond Tariffs
Trump's actions are escalating beyond trade disputes, now directly impacting sensitive geopolitical issues.
This highlights a disregard for international relations and potential global consequences.
Transcript:
Rory Stewart
They don't the saudis are going to pay are the saudis going to pay i mean and and here's here's wig i'm going to come to you on this one does no one understand how different spouting nonsense About Israel Gaza is compared to tariffs? So I think just to push you on that for a second, that's a good point from Wig, that he's, that, yes, you're right. To some extent, it's reality TV, but it's a level of irresponsibility and recklessness going right and punching the very most sensitive thing in global politics at the moment, alienating Absolutely central American allies in Egypt, Saudi, Jordan.
Alistair Campbell
I mean, it's a sort of move beyond tariffs, isn't it? Oh, absolutely. But, you know, if you look at what happened in relation to tariffs, the big target were also people that actually most Americans, particularly Canada, would see as allies. They don't think they're at war with Canada. They may think they've got a problem with Mexican drug cartels and so forth. They don't think they're at war with Mexico. And likewise in the Middle East. Okay, let's give them some credit where it's due. The Abraham Accords and that sort of move towards the normalization of relations between some of the really the powers in the Middle East that have had such difficult relations over So many decades, that was a good thing. That was a good thing. And yet this, it seems to me, goes against that because he cannot resist the idea of having these big, bold plans where people like Shapiro, people like Musk, whatever, people like McCarthy, They will give them some kind of intellectual coherence that actually they probably don't deserve. And there was in the car on the way back from the airport, I was listening to an interview with, he was the justice minister in the Palestinian Authority from Gaza. And he said something I thought really quite moving. He said, look, we've been here for thousands of years and we want to stay here. Think of you know things like the highland clearances and the irish potato famine and all of these things where bigger powers suddenly decide that you are just pawns in my game and the Game that trump is playing at the moment is i can reshape the world and i've got this sort of i'm i'm not a president i'm an emperor and if you're an emperor you can you know we've talked before About their obsession with jul Caesar and this idea that, you know, so he starts off, he's going for Canada, he's going for Mexico, he's going for Greenland, he's going for Panama, he's Renaming the Gulf of Mexico, the Gulf of America. And now out of nowhere, he's going to turn part of the Middle East, not into American influence, but literally American owned. It is off the scale. And I just, let me just find a little point. I really do hope when we were in the States, we met some people who were, you know, Arabs from Michigan who basically said, yeah, there's something about, there's something about Kamala Harris I don't quite like uh well you know they've now got trump and how's that going for gaza right now the (Time 0:34:07)
Trump's Unwavering Support
Trump's Gaza plan, while reckless, might not significantly impact his voter base due to existing political polarization.
This demonstrates the strength of his charisma and the deep divisions within the American electorate.
Transcript:
Rory Stewart
Extraordinary one of the many extraordinary things about it is that it's going to damage him with his voters much much less than you could ever imagine so you we can explain this, other People can explain this till the cows come home, right? I mean, this should be a fantastic litmus test that lets the entire world see this guy is completely irresponsible, alienating his allies, doesn't do his homework, doing something Incredibly dangerous, and it's actually the reverse of what he said he was doing, which is making a more peaceful world, as you said at the beginning. And yet we have got to a state where his charisma and people's contempt for the Democrats is so much that. Literally, I mean, this is where he said it, didn't he? When he said, you know, I can shoot someone dead and yeah, nobody care. I don't think his supporters will care at all. I don't think this is likely to have any effects on his net popularity. They will feel, probably, that let me try some thoughts. A lot of people who are pro-Israel will think, well, great. I mean, I'm not listening to detail of this, but it sounds like it's good for Israel and bad for Palestinians, so good on him. Other people who will say, well, it's beating up a bunch of Muslims and their terrorists and troublemakers. So great. If you talk about what the impact will be on Jordan and Egypt, they'll think, well, screw Gordon and Egypt. We're not interested in Jordan and Egypt anyway. And they love probably the sense of raw power. I mean, this is this thing we've talked about in the past, which I think is a very, very worrying thing. I've been spending too much time recently looking at American bro podcasts and some British tech bro podcasts. And they're usually kind of really well put together young men who spend quite a lot of time in the gym and invest in, I'm being a bit mean here, but invest in cryptocurrency and love reading Biographies of American billionaires. And they love sharing tech tips and life hacks. And one of the things they absolutely love about Trump is the idea that he's a disruptor. They've got it in his head that he's a guy like, you know, they keep using this analogy. Elon Musk came along, looked at electric cars and realized that they were spending all this money on lithium batteries. And he took it back to first principles and worked out, reversed engineering it. You didn't need so much lithium and he made a much cheaper electric vehicle. And Trump is like that. And I don't know what it would take to damage this group, short of him launching and losing a major war. I can't actually see what he can do. (Time 0:37:22)
The Need for Unified Opposition
World leaders need to unite and directly confront Trump's disruptive actions and rhetoric.
Silence or appeasement will only embolden him further.
Transcript:
Rory Stewart
We had a challenge from E plus you saying, Rory, you're wrong. Shin Bet Mossad, the army would oppose the occupation of Gaza. That's absolutely right. Israel does not want to be an occupying power in Gaza because that would be like what Israel in Lebanon from 1980 to the mid-2000s. They don't want soldiers being killed. They don't want the responsibility of Gaza. They don't want the cost of trying to occupy Gaza. But on the other hand, they do not want, certainly Netanyahu's coalition, do not want a strong, successful Palestinian state running Gaza, and they don't want a situation which is Almost inevitable, which is the state reaching some kind of understanding with Hamas, which have a big de facto presence on the ground. So Israel is between a rock and a hard place, and the likelihood is what they will do is not occupy Gaza, not take responsibility for reconstructing, but nor will they allow the Palestinian Authority establish itself in Gaza. Instead, it will continue being pummeled to rubble, and there will be occasional humanitarian convites let in, but never enough, because Israel will continue to demand that it can Stop those convoys at any moment, that it worries that things are getting into Gaza, that it doesn't want to get into Gaza. And it will continue. But let me, sorry, me replying to the challenge on the chat. Can I come back to your bigger point, though? I was talking to a Syrian friend two days ago about this, and he said, when is the world going to come together and stand up to Trump? When are people going to actually unify? Now, you talked about this in relation to Canada, but why are we not yet seeing a really strong unified response? Britain, EU, Canada, G7 saying, no, we profoundly, since as you've said before our instinct is he's some he's a bully who responds to strength i mean i don't know when the next g7 gathering
Alistair Campbell
Would be and of course at the moment you've got trudeau on the way out you've got schultz probably on the way out you've got macron weakened um but just let's just imagine that the g7 the Next g7 was taking place next week okay let's just imagine it was you've got seven people that have always been presented we had the bit when it became g8 and the russians were there but Generally these are seven countries that have a lot to agree on what would the g7 have said if it met the leaders met next week at a time when trump is saying hey trudeau your piddling little Country should just be part of the mind? That you have to all night now. Let's say there was a meeting of NATO heads of government tomorrow. What is the prime minister of Denmark meant to say across the table with NATO members there to Trump? He's basically saying I can take over a huge chunk, Greenland, a huge chunk of your country. So I think we've got to stop pretending and stop kidding ourselves that we're living in normal times with a normal American president. We're dealing with somebody who I think, you're right, I think people are going to have to stand up. This is a very good example of where it could happen. I actually think for, you know, one of the, maybe even one of the permanent five leaders to say, maybe it's time just to have a bit of a clear the air kind of discussion at the United Nations About this. Or maybe we need to, you know, if we're now talking about such a fundamental change in the Middle East, let's have a special G7. Let's have a special meeting of the key players in the Middle East. What you can't do is just have every world leader every day wake up and see what rubbish he's come out with overnight, and then have all these kind of cheerleaders saying there's method In the madness. (Time 0:48:19)
Biden's Imperfect Record
Biden, despite being preferable to Trump, wasn't flawless on international law and Palestinian issues.
This nuance complicates the simple hero-villain narrative and requires a more nuanced understanding.
Transcript:
Rory Stewart
Of the problems which Sarah Kahn, who's one of our subscribers, just pointed out in the comments is that from the point of view of many people, Biden was not that great on international Law either. And that will be true for people who feel strong solidarity for Gaza and Palestinians. It's also true for the Gulf Arabs. So part of the problem is we're positing it that there was an old world where you could sort of, if you were the Gulf or the Palestinians, you could rely on Europe and the United States. And now suddenly Trump's come in. From their point of view, they would say, for example, let's take the Houthis. So the Houthis fired rockets at Saudi and the US did not protect Saudi and Biden refused to declare the Houthis a terrorist group. As soon as the Houthis fired rockets at Israel, or at ships trying to get to Israel, Biden intervened and launched airstrikes against the Houthis in Yemen, right? That would be an example of people thinking there's double standards here. They will also think, well, actually, in the end, Biden caved into every Israeli demand there was. And so one of the challenges, I guess, is for people like you and me who feel very, very strongly that Biden was much, much better than Trump, is trying to explain something which is quite Difficult, which is he's much better than Trump despite all his flaws, despite all the hypocrisy. And of course, Europe is a much better ally than Trump. Again, despite all its hypocrisy, despite all its history, despite all its flaws. And that's a more difficult argument than just a kind of black and white hero against villain argument. (Time 0:52:06)
Starmer's Dilemma
Keir Starmer faces a difficult balancing act: maintaining relations with the US while upholding British values and principles regarding Palestine.
He must navigate this complex situation while advocating for a two-state solution.
Transcript:
Alistair Campbell
There's somebody just put a thing in the chat saying that, well, there's quite a lot of people saying we've got Trump derangement syndrome. I'm not sure about that. But anyway, maybe we have. But there's somebody saying that, you know, Biden actually did fail on this. And what he's trying to do, what Trump is trying to do is to shake things up because the truth, here we go, Red Bucks, what progress between Hamas and Israel are you talking about, AC? I guess I'm talking about the ceasefire. The back and forth slaughter will continue forever unless something monumental is done. Trump is trying to shake things up. That is the sort of, you know, the disruptive. That's the saying. He's a disruptor. He'll shake things up. And there's an argument for that. You could say there's an argument for that. By the way, the other thing that people are saying in the chat is that it's pointless burbling on about the International Criminal Court because America is not a party to it. However, I checked on this earlier today. Under the Rome statute, Palestine is uh party to the icc and that means that if there are any americans who take part in such a program inside palestine they would be uh covered by the the The international criminal court so it's not as simple as just saying because america is not involved but anyway yet again was that did that even go across his desk i doubt it can i finish
Rory Stewart
We're coming to the end but just um let's just uh finish with a final difficult question for you um how does kia starmer handle this because again a bit 1930s um we've got a guy who's going Around insulting aggressively a lot of the rest of the world while occasionally tempting a bit of a charm offensive against you know yeah he keeps saying you know he really likes kirsten And uh you know he might give them a softer trade deal than he'd give other people and so there will be big pressures when britain is worried about its economy and its growth and this kind Of thing to think, well, maybe we shouldn't speak up too much. Maybe we should let the Europeans speak up. Maybe if we're gentle with them, we might be able to get away with stuff. On the one hand, we're calling people to come together and stand up against Trump. On the other hand, and this is the problem I'm giving you, let's imagine you're the the comms director in number 10. How do you balance that against the real politic of what Starmer may want to get out of Trump?
Alistair Campbell
Yeah, well, again, we talked about this briefly on the main podcast this week about how this, the right in particular are trying to force upon Keir Starmer this false choice between You can either be with America or you can be with Europe, you can't be with both. I think he's got to try to maintain good relations with both. I do think in terms of economic and diplomatic power, far more should be invested in Europe, particularly with Trump being so unreliable. But in terms of this specifically, I actually think that, I was quite encouraged, by the way, I shouldn't do this, but as soon as I got off the plane, and you and I were both sort of looking At our phones as we sat on the plane this morning, just checking on all the things that Trump had said and done. And one of the first things I did was I texted David Lamy and said, you can't sit this out. You've got to say something about this. Anyway, by the time I got home, both kia starmer and david lemme had said something and kia starmer was asked about it at pmqs and he he was he was fairly moderate in the language but he basically Said that you know the the gazans want to live there they want to go home he talked about how these two images in his mind, one was of the Israeli hostages being reunited with their families, But then the other was of these thousands and thousands of Gazans, you know, trudging, walking to their homes, because they did want to rediscover, they did want to see how badly damaged They were, they did want to see whether they could rebuild. So I think he's sticking to the British position, which is that we've got to ultimately keep trying to work towards a two-state solution. What he hasn't done is come out and said the sort of things that you and I have said, because we are no longer political players, as it were, involved in this. We're, as it were, commentating from the outside. But I think the important thing is there's got to be values and principles at the heart of this. And the values and the principles say that the British role in this should be to keep pressing and keep arguing and fighting for proper justice for the Palestinians, security for the Israelis, and work towards a two-state solution.
Rory Stewart
Good. Let's finish on that. And remember that the thing that's been lost in all of this is the question of peace for Gaza and reconstruction for Gaza. He's just thrown this completely irrelevant, unworkable plan down on the table. By doing so, taken all the pressure on Israel to think seriously about what the future of Gaza could be, how reconstruction could happen, what kind of government it would have, the interests Of the Palestinians being completely ignored. And the world is flailing around dealing with a U.S. President who is, in a way that wasn't true really in his first time, is trying to set himself up, not as he claimed in his in his inaugural address as a agent of peace but as an agent of chaos
Alistair Campbell
Yeah i just remind people the main podcast this week is already up we're talking about syria we're talking about trump and tariffs talking about germany we're talking about rory and Jd vance arguing about god we're talking about he throw and growth q a is up uh overnight tomorrow into tomorrow and then on monday, the interview that Roy and I have just come back from Syria doing with the new president of Palestine, the new president of Syria, Ahmed al-Shara, which I think you will find very, very interesting. And by the way, one of the reasons we did this emergency podcast is because plenty of our subscribers were telling us that they to so if you want to become a subscriber go to the rest is politics.com Thank you for listening and watching thank you again bye (Time 0:53:43)
