Rory Stewart discusses the Aga Khan's significant contributions to international development.
He highlights the Aga Khan's entrepreneurial approach, blending development work with impact investing.
Transcript:
Alistair Campbell
Of the Aga Khan? I haven't seen much coverage of this, but this seems like a crazy story. So the Aga Khan has just died, aged 88. And the Aga Khan is the head of the Ismaili community. Was a direct descendant of the prophet muhammad famously one of the wealthiest families in the world he was both an extraordinary leader in international development but also a head Of state without having a set geographical nation so So I got to know him probably 25 years ago. And he was a really extraordinary entrepreneur. His father and grandfather had a little bit more of a reputation as a playboy. And he definitely was somebody who was a great skier. I think he skied in the Olympics and had racehorses. But what he really did was care about international development. And it was really impressive. It's a sort of sign of what you can do and what I'd love to see some of these American mega billionaires do with their money, because he did both pure development and he also did development Impact investing. So he spent about five and a half billion dollars a year. But to give you an example of how it came together in Afghanistan, he would be funding cultural restoration. So they did incredible work restoring Babel's gardens, for example. But he also had a hotel, best hotel in Kabul, where I was staying last time we did a podcast, the Serena Hotel. He would also invest in really good basic healthcare and clinics, particularly in remote rural areas. He would provide support on banking and microfinance. He ran airlines in Africa. He had big nurses training colleges going. And because he was able to draw on the Ismany community, there was a lot of local expertise. It was done incredibly professionally, often largely with local staff with very few international staff. And I've never seen, I think, anywhere in the world, including Bill Gates, anybody in international development, demonstrates such kind of imagination, creativity, flexibility On bringing stuff together. You know, he believed in enabling environment for business, but he also was somebody who would say that a country's culture is just as important as its mineral resources and its water For its development. So he will be deeply missed. (Time 0:02:39)
Diversifying Canadian Trade
Consider trade relations beyond the US, given its unreliability.
Trudeau's tough stance against Trump's tariff threats was generally supported by Canadians.
Transcript:
Alistair Campbell
Very good, yes. Here we are. Question for you then. Carter Price, where should Canada look to in future for trade relations, as we clearly can't rely on the US? And maybe tell us a bit about some of the response we got from subscribers and listeners really engaging with us on the Canada question.
Rory Stewart
We threw it out last week when we talked about Justin Trudeau's, the way that he dealt with and the other politicians dealt with Donald Trump's threat of tariffs. And you were saying basically you thought that Trudeau should maybe have gone the whole hog and take the pain. And I was arguing, no, I'm not sure that would be the right thing to do. He just had to stop the tariffs, which he's managed to do for this 30-day reprieve, at the end of which I suspect Trump will have moved on to, as Tommy Vita suggested, invading the Falkland Islands or something. I'd say the very strong balance of opinion amongst the many Canadians who responded was that they supported the pretty tough approach that Trudeau had taken and also supported him Giving this line about having, we'll have a fentanyl czar.
Alistair Campbell
Just remind people, what they were saying often is, yeah, okay, we get Rory's theory that we could have played brinksmanship with Trump. But the reality is that the impact of these tariffs on the Canadian economy would have been completely catastrophic. Yeah. And that actually most Canadians support him for giving a little bit of a concession in order to get the threat of tariffs suspended. I think he's only suspended them for 31 days. My only question is this divide and rule question, that I'm beginning to think that countries need to stand together against Trump. And even if the concessions he's getting are, as you say, pretty minimal. Nevertheless, he got concessions out of Canada and Canada didn't get any concessions out of him.
Rory Stewart
Well, they did in a way. They did. They didn't get the tariffs imposed. Well, that's not a concession.
Alistair Campbell
That's like I come up, I threatened to club you over the head unless you do something. And I don't want you to club me over the head. So you give me a book and then you say, well, we both made concessions because I didn't club you over the head.
Rory Stewart
Okay. I think Trudeau won that one. I do. Also, I want to give a shout out, Rory, to a boy called Magnus. Think his name is and he's and he's got a podcast he's nine years old and he's got a podcast called magnaphone and he sent us a voice note about why he was agreeing with me and trudeau and
Alistair Campbell
His basic line was you have to stand up to bullies rory this is where this is exactly magnus where the disagreement is coming from what the canadians are saying is yes we stand up, but we Also gave him some concessions because we actually couldn't bear to go all the way to the wire on this.
Rory Stewart
He didn't really give him concessions. He said we're going to do this, which are things that are already doing. And he had this fentanyl czar idea, which, you know, Trump, honestly, Rory, I think, listen to me and the Canadians, Rory, we're right about this. We're right about it. And just to remind people as well, Saturday, sometime in the afternoon UK time, we're going to do a me, the mooch and the governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, ex-governor of the Bank of England. And so we'll talk lots more about Canada there. Now, Rory, what about some (Time 0:05:44)
US Interference in Kosovo
Richard Grenell's criticism of Kosovo's Prime Minister reveals US interference in foreign elections.
This reflects broader American unreliability in international relations.
Transcript:
Alistair Campbell
Of the stuff that's been going on in Europe? Yeah, here's a question for you. I want to get this Waldrin Emine, big fan of the podcast, love to see these detailed discussions about current affairs happening around the world. Love to get your opinion on Kosovo's general election and the tweet by former American ambassador to Germany, Richard Grenell, who we've raised that sheep in the past when we're talking About Trump and Kosovo and what's happened in the Western Balkans. His tweet about Prime Minister Alvin Kurti. Let me just remind people what he said. Grenell looked Now, Albin Kurti, the Kosovo Prime Minister, as an unreliable partner for Washington. Grenell was the Director of National Intelligence under Trump, has been named Trump's nomination to run the Kennedy Center and his, I think, an envoy for special diplomatic relations Around the world. The Curti's government was unreliable during Trump's first term. It's also been unreliable during Biden's term. And he blames Curti. In other words, he's basically taking the Serbian side. And the Serbian side is to portray Curti and the Kosovar-Banians as causing all the trouble and portraying Vucic, the Serbian leader, as though he's the one offended against. Over to you.
Rory Stewart
We're going back to the point about America's unreliability. There's Musk interfering, trying to interfere in the German election, which we'll talk about in a minute. And this is Grenell essentially trying to interfere in the Kosovo election. Grenell, who, by the way, Rory, yesterday was in Venezuela with Maduro, talking about, you know, Venezuela back some of their people. And there's a horrific story in Venezuela at the weekend. There was a guy filmed, I don't know how they got the film, being dragged out of his flat in Chile, but by what looked like Venezuelan security people. And his body was later found encased in concrete. So Kosovo, Albin Korty, who we interviewed last year, was it last autumn? Yeah. Prime Minister of Kosovo, very, very interesting character, very tough character. And Kosovo, tiny, tiny, tiny place, not recognized still by some countries, including I think half a dozen European countries, but, you know, clearly emerged out of the war with Serbia.
Alistair Campbell
Just again, for younger listeners, very, very symbolic, because Kosovo, along with Bosnia, were the two big international humanitarian interventions of the 1990s, where they were Challenging Milosevic and Serbian-led ethnic cleansing and were seen, controversially for Russia and others, but generally for the West as successful examples of the West being Able to work together, intervene, stop further killing, and set up states, more democratic states, coming out of authoritarianism, and putting them, we hoped, at that stage on the Path towards European Union membership. Back over to you. So (Time 0:08:50)
Europe's Far-Right Challenge
Europe faces a critical juncture with the rise of far-right populist movements mirroring Trump's rhetoric.
Established parties grapple with forming coalitions to exclude the far right, impacting political stability.
Transcript:
Alistair Campbell
The big story is that Europe is now in the last chance saloon. The West is basically disintegrating under the pressure from Trump. And in most of these countries now, far right populist groups are emerging who are joyfully imitating Trump's language. Trump's language on immigration, Trump's language on constitutions, Trump's language is on the rule of law. And in Germany and Austria, we've got this very interesting question about what the big old parties do. Can they form coalitions to exclude the far right? Can they govern? And then what happens when new elections come along? And it's the last chance saloon, because if they don't manage to bring together functioning coalitions that work, it's giving that opportunity to the far right. And here's a little update from today on Austria, which is a good example of this, and we'll get to you on Germany. So Kickel, who people will remember, is the leader of this very, very extreme group in Austria. The FPO, which was always had Nazi roots, has become much more extreme under Kickel, and he got the most votes in the election. So many votes, in fact, that when a coalition collapsed, it seemed inevitable that he would probably end up as chancellor. But his demands have become more and more extreme. So he's demanded the suspension of the asylum system. He's demanded leaving the WHO. Nobody knows why the hell he wants to leave the WHO, presumably just imitating Trump. Exactly. He says when EU court decisions are things that he disagrees with, Austria should just ignore the European court, no sanctions on Russia, cut all the funding to public sector broadcasting, Put more money into government money into funding right-wing news outlets, remove the EU flag from buildings. And then he's also very interested in these very extreme moves on citizenship. So you can only get citizenship in 15 years.
Rory Stewart
You get the feeling that he's trying to provoke them to say no and not do a deal, because he's also asking for all the big departments, the ones where you can change the institutions of The state, which of course is the way that Orbán organized Hungary. Added to which the guy that he's negotiating with, the leader of the more conservative right wing party, they're sort of long term sworn enemies. So it's hard to see this one ending anytime soon.
Alistair Campbell
Replay of a theme across Europe, what you'll see is the OVAPE, which is, as you say, that more traditional Conservative Party, probably is in the end going to try to return to form a mass Coalition against Kiekel's party, because his demands have become so mad that presumably what he's trying to do is trigger another election, where he'll think he'll get even more Of the vote, and be able to take over Austria. Now, over to you on Germany, because to some extent, we've got a very interesting question there after the election on what are the CDU going to do? How do they work to exclude the AFD? Can they make a coalition with the Greens and the Social Democrats?
Rory Stewart
Yeah, no, it's a bit of a mess. And I mentioned last week a german interviewer who i said had given alice weidel of the afd quite a going over and her name is karen miozga and i also watched her she did um there was a tv debate This week between schultz and mertz and this issue that we talked about last week was it or the week before, where Merz got a vote through the Bundestag with the help of the AfD, this being Seen as a sort of breakdown of the Brandtmau, the firewall between the mainstream parties and the hard right. That was a very, very big part of the debate. It was interesting as a debate because we're so used these days to think in TV debates, well, that's Donald Trump sort of, you know, insults and all that stuff. It was by German standards, it was quite rough. At one point, Schultz used the word doof of Merz, which sort of means, you know, stupid, crazy kind of thing. That was about as rough as it got, actually. But the debate about immigration, about how to deal with the AFD, about the economy, it was a pretty traditional debate. And then what followed, which I also watched with Karen Miosko, she was interviewing Markus Serder, who's the leader of the CSU, the CDU's, the other part of the union, as it's called, Also a guy called Lars Klingbeil who is one of the leaders of the STP and a journalist from Spiegel and it was really interesting an hour without a break just talking about what had happened In the debate with quite a lot of sort of agreeable disagreement going on and on the one hand you think this election needs a bit more fire and a bit more excitement on the other hand there There's something quite nice about seeing them sort of being moderately polite to each other. But I think that the CDU look like they're going to come first. The AFD looks like it's going to come second. Merz is adamant that he will not do a deal in government with the AFD, in which case he then has to look at things like doing a deal with the SPD, who have basically said that they can't trust Him because of the way that he dealt with the AFD in this vote a couple of weeks ago. So it's a bit of a mess. I also saw another interview he did, Mertz, because he's got a reputation for being very stiff and very conservative and very traditional. And actually, when he lightens up a bit, he's maybe more impressive than I thought he was from seeing just the straightforward debate. He had a bit more life around him. But anyway, we're going to have to get used to it because I think it's very hard to imagine that anybody other than Mertz is going to win this election.
Alistair Campbell
It's again this question that's repeated across Europe of do the Conservative parties cut a deal with the far right so in a British context does Kemi Bain-Ock in the end merge with Farage
Rory Stewart
Which basically she has said today by the way Roy I don't know if you've seen in the Daily Telegraph she says there's no way she's going to get into bed with Nigel Farage I think we should
Alistair Campbell
All be very happy about that and she said herself that is a truly horrible image and in the French example I guess it was the L'Ereo de Chioti decided to try to go with Marine Le Pen and by Doing so tore his party apart. So some of the leading figures in the CDU, for example, the leader of the CDU in Westphalia, who called the AFD Nazis, are not going to put up with it for a moment. It would split the party to pieces. (Time 0:15:05)
Macron's Deep Fake Strategy
Macron used deep fakes of himself to promote an AI summit, raising concerns about the technology.
He aimed to highlight the importance of innovation while acknowledging the risks.
Transcript:
Rory Stewart
No, I was trying to give you an opportunity to go bang, bang, bang. A bit of Germany, a bit of Austria, a bit of France.
Alistair Campbell
Here's your question. Vanessa Gould, what do you think, this is from a subscriber too, what do you think about Macron's use of deep fakes to publicize the start of the AI Action Summit? Is it a clever tool of promotion or does it poke fun at something that is, in fact, of deadly serious concern? Both.
Rory Stewart
I was in France on Sunday, staying in a hotel, and I turned on the telly and I was channel hopping and I lighted upon, I know you go out about macro being this sort of, what was the word you Used the other day? Bloviating. I still think he's one of the finest communicators in the world. He did a one hour interview about AI with a French presenter and an Indian presenter ahead of this AI summit that was co, it was in Paris, but it was basically put together both by France And India. And honestly, Rory, he just was so articulate, so eloquent, he knew so much about it. And it's interesting, so France has had this AI summit, he was talking eye-watering sums of money that the French were announcing. So the video that the question refers to was this, he put together a compilation of lots of deep fakes that have been doing the rounds about Macron, including somewhere he was clearly Being projected as gay, as a woman, you know, lots of him dancing, and they were all complete fakes. So what he was doing, he was using that to get attention for the summit. Peter Kyle, actually, he was also at the summit. He did something similar. He posted a video of himself speaking French, but then admitted that he couldn't speak French. And what had happened? He used an AI tool to translate himself. And it was very, very, very convincing. But what's the big point?
Alistair Campbell
Because I guess the big strategic challenge that he needs to face is getting the balance between risk and growth, as with all this. And the normal criticism that you would get from the AI guys in Silicon Valley is that Macron and the European Union are basically going to choke AI development because they're so worried About the risks, they're barely even allowing the models to develop, and that you can't even really regulate these models until you see what they are. The analogy they use is it's like trying to, I don't know, regulate a car in about 1908 when it's still traveling at 20 miles an hour, and you start putting in rules that people have to walk
Rory Stewart
In front of it with a flag because you don't really understand what a car is yeah when when kia starmer had his equivalent ai event recently he was very much on the side of take more risk I i saw macron's interview i didn't follow the event itself because i was traveling he essentially was saying to europe you know we've got to catch up here, and we've got to catch up by Being pretty innovative and pretty entrepreneurial about it. He did have some very, very big private sector engagement at the event. Modi was there, quite a few of the big world leaders were there. So I just wanted to draw to your attention though, Roy, that for all your accusations that he just likes sort of Sorbonne style bloviation, that he's still a very, very, very effective Communicator. (Time 0:24:20)
Trump's Gaza Proposal
Trump's proposal to "buy and own Gaza" reflects a dangerous disregard for international law and human rights.
His real estate approach to geopolitical issues is alarming and raises serious ethical concerns.
Transcript:
Alistair Campbell
So here's a question from Martin Tabachnik in Sydney. So he says, your discussion of Trump's plan for Gaza and Rory's list of alternative outcomes seems to miss a key possibility. New Gazan leadership pursuing peace with Israel to build a better future for Gazans. Why wasn't this considered? Is your thinking becoming ossified? So I don't quite understand really where he's coming from. So I guess the closest that I can imagine to this is leadership in Gaza, which means by definition, Palestinian leadership. So that would be either the Palestinian Authority or some new group emerging in Gaza, which would have to come to some kind of accommodation with Hamas, because whether you like it or Not, Hamas is still a very, very significant force on the ground in Gaza, then engaging with Israel on the reconstruction of Gaza. But I don't know quite where Martin Tabachnik thinks it then goes. Israel's made it clear they want no responsibility for Gaza, they don't want any costs for Gaza, and they want to reserve the right to close Gaza's borders and be able to mount military Raids in order to defend Israeli security. And then Trump has outflanked even the wildest dreams of the Israeli far right by talking now not just about clearing Gaza and repeating this again and again, so the ethnic cleansing Of Gaza, two million people moving to Jordan and Egypt, but also made it clear since we recorded the podcast that in his vision, the Palestinians will not return.
Rory Stewart
I know you said on the main podcast there's a dangerous sort of Trump derangement syndrome. It's very hard not to feel deranged when you hear him saying this. So he's on the plane. He's deciding that he's had enough of golf for one day. So he's going to get on Air Force One and he's going to go and watch the first half of the Super Bowl. He's going to leave for the second half because he probably didn't like, even though he claimed he got the nicest welcome of anybody in history. There was actually a bit of booing going on. He said this on the plane. I'm committed, right? Not America. I'm committed to buying and owning Gaza. As far as us rebuilding it, we may give it to other states in the Middle East to build sections of it. Other people may do it through our auspices. But we're committed to owning it, taking it and making sure that Hamas doesn't move back. Then goes on. There's nothing to move back into. The place is a demolition site. The remainder will be demolished. Everything's demolished. I mean, you're talking about a people and a land as though, and he used this phrase himself, as though it's a great real estate deal. And that is how he views the whole thing. I mean, I find the whole thing just utterly horrific.
Alistair Campbell
Well, it's sort of almost impossible to kind of unpick that, isn't it? I mean, it runs blatantly in the face of international law because it's ethnic cleansing. You're pushing out 2 million people whose homes those are, whose country that is out of their own country. It's totally breaking state sovereignty. So America is somehow acquiring this on what grounds? And this is one of the other strange things with his acquisition of Greenland stories. He doesn't claim that he has a moral justification or a legal justification. He just says, I've got the money. And then there's the context of what this means. I mean, very unusually, when I was talking to you last week, I'd been talking to people who are very close to Saudi UAE government and they initially said that the smart money is on not Saying too much about what Trump is doing and just hope it goes away. Of course King of Jordan's just visiting the states at the moment and he's under huge pressure because Trump has basically taken away all the underpinnings that the US provided to Jordanian Budget and using that as blackmail to force them to take Palestinians in a way that will probably topple the Jordanian monarchy if he did it. But the response from Saudi was so strong and immediate, very, very unexpected. Instead of being quiet, the Saudis chose to immediately put out a statement condemning the entire idea and and that's also going to be something that start unraveling this is american Relationships in the middle east unraveling yeah (Time 0:27:49)
Reflecting on Gaza Coverage
The podcast hosts reflect on their initial coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
They acknowledge being too balanced and express stronger criticism of Israel's actions in Gaza.
Transcript:
Rory Stewart
Rory why this one same subject therese mack having just listened to your podcast on trump gaza if you listen back to your early episodes after october the 7th do you think you were wrong In your analysis and your attempt to be balanced about is's response? Have Western politicians and media enabled genocide with weak criticism? I have thought about that, whether we were too balanced. We said right at the start, we saw our role as trying to explain from both sides, in fact, from all sides, why they were doing the things that we're doing. And I think as it went on, we became more and more frustrated. This idea that it wasn't clear what the Israeli strategy was other than ultimately eventually to wait for Trump. And you can argue from Netanyahu's perspective, that was effective because Trump has given him way more than he thought he was going to get.
Alistair Campbell
Yeah, I think we've been too equivocating. You're completely right. And I'm guilty of it, because I'm always feeling that we need to do your sort of Macron on the one hand or the other. But we have to be clear now. The attitude of the Israeli government towards the Palestinians of Gaza is unforgivable. Complete lack of interest in reconstruction, in the interest of their lives, the endless justification for the prolonged conflict, the fact that there has not been any clear statements About the reality here. State of Israel. Everything being proposed here is ethnic cleansing, completely illegal. And it is outrageous that we are allowing these double standards to happen. And I think it is absolutely right that people should be returning to the International Criminal Court and the International Court of Justice. And we should also be pointing out what's now happening on the West Bank. You know, just to give a small example, there's a bookshop that I go to when I'm in Jerusalem that many, many other people visit. It's just been raided by the Israeli police, and the two bookshop owners have just been locked up. And you have this bizarre and slightly sort of almost comical, if it wasn't so nasty, image of the Israeli police, who presumably can't read any Arabic, going around trying to use Google Translate to pick up books by Noam Chomsky, which are being stocked in this Palestinian bookshop. I mean, this is not the liberal Israel. This is not the democratic Israel that people like Yuval Noah Harari stood up for. And it's a sign of one of the reasons why I'm afraid so many people are now leaving Israel, because this is never supposed to be the vision of liberal Jews. (Time 0:31:57)
