Nigel Farage faces a challenge from the further right within his party.
This mirrors the broader struggle of right-wing parties across Europe.
Transcript:
Rory Stewart
Welcome to The Restless Politics Question Time with me, Rory Stewart.
Alastair Campbell
And with me, Anastair Campbell. And yesterday, we had a very, very heavy foreign policy, China, Russia, Syria. So we didn't have time for, as Carol puts it here, what on earth is happening inside Reform UK? Related questions. Ray from London. Imagine you had to help Farage God help you with his messaging and stance on Trump in Ukraine what would you recommend Jack Regan from Cumbria your old stamping ground trip plus member How do we know that reform Nigel Farage and their billionaire funders aren't in cahoots with Russia to bring Britain into authoritarian rule so there's a lot let's unpack some of that
Rory Stewart
Let me try um you're in the uk and i'm not let me try to give my sense of what i've picked up is happening and you can correct it so it looks as though what's happened is that rupert lowe who Is one of the five or was one of the five reform mps elected in great yarmouth, who had been a Brexit MEP alongside Farage in the European Parliament, and apparently they were reasonably Good friends a few years ago, has begun to diverge from him. And the first signs of divergence were that Lowe came out in favour of Tommy Robinson, this far-right extremist as a martyr. He also, Lowe also talks about deportation of a million people. And Farage has said he doesn't think that's a good idea, and has said he doesn't want anything to do with Tommy Robinson. So there's a sort of policy disagreement. Then Lowe gave an interview in the Mail in which he said that Farage was suffering from a messiah complex and didn't have any policies. And somewhere along the line, and one wonders whether one finds Dominic Cummings' hand in this, Elon Musk began taking a bizarre interest in the details of Reform Party politics, saying That Nigel Farage wasn't the person to run reform. And instead, he started promoting Rupert Lowe. And the response to this, or maybe it's not a response to this, but it certainly appears to be a response to this, is that Rupert Lowe has now found not only that the whip has been stripped From him by your friend Lee Anderson, the whip of the Reform Party, but also he has been accused of harassing his office staff. Casey has been employed. And rather bizarrely, he's also been accused of physically assaulting the chairman of the party. And given both he and the chairman of the party on the surface seem rather mild-mannered men, this vision of their fisticuffs is also intriguing. Have I misunderstood the story? No, I think you've pretty much got there.
Alastair Campbell
Just on the staff, the other Rory in my life, he sent me a thing this morning, have I seen this? And it's an open letter that's been written by Rupert Lowe's staff saying what a lovely man he is, and he's never seen any bullying, he's never seen any intimidation, blah, blah, blah, Blah. I must admit, I know Rupert Rowe a little bit because when he was chairman of Southampton Football Club, whenever Burnley played there, he always seemed to quite like having lunch with Me before I wandered off to the away end. And I think I recorded in my diaries that I don't think I've ever met anybody quite as right-wing as this guy. He's very, very, very right wing on the economy and all sorts of other things. And last night, Rory, I was Matt Ford, the comedian, who was very, very ill not long ago, but he's now back in action. And I was a guest on his live show last night at the Duchess Theatre. And I've got to say, you mentioned Lee Anderson, who's not my friend. That was a joke. I know. Matt Ford lee anderson is one of the best impersonations i've seen for a long long time but he was talking about this thing he said that elon musk taking an active interest in the leadership Of a party with five mps in the uk he says it's like mark zuckerberg suddenly decided i'm going to decide who's the next leader of shin Fé. There is something utterly bizarre about it. But I think you're right. I think what it's about, I think, look, I don't know, because I've not talked to either of them about it. But I wonder if partly it is the Messiah thing. Nigel Farage, not without reason, thinks that he is the prime driver of the support for Reform UK, just as he was for the previous parties that fell apart after a while. He was a prime mover in the Brexit referendum and a very effective campaign in the Brexit referendum, which is why we should never let him forget it. And Rupert Lowe does seem, this is extraordinarily the same, he does seem issues like immigration to be even further to the right than Nigel Farage and his core. And I think what might be going on here is that Nigel Farage is watching how the Conservatives are operating under Kemi Badenok. And I think you and I both think that Kemi Badenok probably won't last very long. But her strategy seems to be, I can take over reform votes by being a bit more like reform. I think he's resisting that by saying, I'm going to stay pretty much where I am. I'm a sort of right-wing conservative. I rejected Tommy Robinson very deliberately to say I'm not extreme right. This is another opportunity to say that. Now, the for him, and I once, when I've told you before, when I had a long chat with him at question time, he said to me, he said, the thing about Musk, it's not really about the money. It's the fact that he's very, very popular with young men. And we're targeting young men. And the members special that we did with Bruce Anderson, the Canadian strategist and pollster, he said, Pierre Poilier will be really worried at the moment about upsetting Musk, because Musk does have a certain, it's not overwhelming, but if Poilievre came out against him, he risks losing support.
Rory Stewart
And I think Farage may be worrying about that too. Yeah, well, Farage is in the classic problem that all right-wing parties across Europe are facing, which is what happens when somebody tries to outflank you further on the right. So obviously the conservatives have that problem with reform. But now he's got the problem that Rupert Lowe is saying, I'm going to deport a million people, Tommy Robinson's a martyr. And Farage then has to decide, can he hold whatever the weird word for it is the center of the far right against the right of the far right? The far right centrists. The left of the far right. It's like people like me who describe themselves as lower upper middle class. Anyway, so Farage is in this world. And of course, the conventional wisdom from political scientists in the 20s and 30s is don't endlessly indulge and move further to the right, because that basically just gives the Fascists their win. And if you hold your ground, (Time 0:01:24)
Labour's Socialist Identity
Labour's recent policy decisions raise questions about its socialist identity.
Austerity measures and cuts to foreign aid contrast with increased defense spending.
Transcript:
Rory Stewart
I want to hit you again with something. We've done a lot of international, understandably, but here's a question from Jonathan Pembrokeshire. With numerous dubious policy decisions, including drastic cuts to foreign aid and benefits, alongside increased defence spending, is there anything socialist left about the Labour Party? It feels like Farage has dragged everyone right. Let me continue to develop that. I was talking to Labour activists over the weekend. I actually had a, not a very damaging, but a small car crash. And as I was waiting for insurance documents and police and things, I had this long conversation with Labour activists who was saying that they weren't Corbynistas. They were very central Labour, but they campaigned very hard. And this included quite a lot of young people. And they've been really shocked that Labour hasn't raised the cap on two children on benefits. Really shocked by what they've done on international development spending. Instead of seeing an incredible opportunity as Trump cut for the UK to move into that space to just sort of copy it and almost suggesting from number 10, actually one of the Labour MPs That they'd done it in order to impress Trump, that it was one of the things they were, along with the invitation to the state visit, they were saying to Trump, look, we've cut international Development spending too. And essentially, they came out of this thinking that they're really worried that Starmer and Rachel Reeves don't really care about social justice, and that they're making the mistake Of chasing right wing votes, when in fact, they should be paying more attention to traditional Labour voters on these issues.
Alastair Campbell
We talked about that polling last week that University College London had done, which suggested that Labour was just as vulnerable to losing votes in that direction, the direction Of your car crash person, as opposed to on the right. I think part of this is that the media ecosystem in which we exist, I still think is very, very much to the right. So when Keir Starmer says at a private meeting, as he did yesterday, the welfare bill is unsustainable, and it's unfair, and it's not working, there's a left-wing case that you can make For welfare reform. But that gets reported as this will upset, this will anger people on the left of the Labour Party. And I think the other thing is that this is again something that we talked about Peter Karl. And by the way, I really urge people to listen to the interview of Peter Carl, not least for his own life story is so kind of moving in so many ways. But when these Labour ministers are out and about, I bumped in last week, I bumped into Matthew Barsan. Do you remember Matthew Barsan, who was the ambassador? Ambassador. American ambassador under Obama, and who's remained very close to Britain and spends a lot of time in Britain. And I bumped into him the other day and he said, he said, listen, can't you go and help these younger ministers, sort of how they communicate? What do you mean? He said, well, they all sound so nervous and they sound like they're, they're reading a script and they sound like there's not enough confidence there. If I were to do that, I would say to them, look, whatever you're talking about, find a way of mentioning things like the workers' rights package, which is traditionally what you would Call quite a left-wing approach to the thing. So Angela Rayner pushes that, but it's not part of the language. Everybody knows about winter fuel payments. Everybody now knows that they're planning these disability cuts. But does everybody know that they're making these changes to give workers more rights, which actually when you poll it is very, very popular. The fact that Labour have managed to deliver more NHS appointments than they said they were going to within the first year. Done it already. That is the sort of thing that you have to keep reminding people has happened. I would argue that what Ed Miliband's doing in the Great British Energy space is actually, albeit he's got people sort of pulling, trying to hold him back a bit. I think that is you could put into the left wing bracket. Private education. Every business event you and I do, we get in the Q&A. There's always somebody saying, you know, why are Labour punishing me just because I'm well enough to send my kids to private school? That is, if you like, traditionally on the left. So I think there's lots of things that they're doing. Water bosses bonuses. I mean, there's loads of stuff, but they're not loud enough in the debate about what they're doing with them. (Time 0:27:44)
King Charles and Music
King Charles shared his musical choices, highlighting the importance of music.
His selections included Bob Marley, Kylie Minogue, Grace Jones, and Beyoncé.
Transcript:
Alastair Campbell
Now, Rory, I've got a question for you. The question is about King Charles and soft power. Ian Murtagh, Gosforth, TripPlus member, could King Charles play a soft power role in Broker in Peace in Ukraine, given his relations with Zelensky and Trudeau? It's quite elite. But I actually want to talk about King Charles and music, Rory. The fact that King Charles has put out these musical choices, has this not pushed you towards accepting that music is actually, I mean, he says it all. He says that music is just so special and so important in all of our lives and there's you and actually i've got to say bob marley and the whalers well i adore bob marley uh could you be loved Good choice kylie minogue i know who's going for the commonwealth connections she's australian grace jones la vian rose excellent choice beyonce do you know the only criticism i've Got rory when you speak to him he said this was about celebrating the commonwealth why was there no bagpipe in his musical choices his mother would definitely have had the bagpipes no
Rory Stewart
That's good but i i'm very very pleased that that you engaged with that saw that and like that he's also done great stuff on on poetry theater um no i think i think that that's one of the the Really positive aspects of it well you need to be educated and why life without music is not a proper life i i i absolutely hear you i'm an uncivilized human being i i don't have the depths Of your beethoven soul i i completely uh if only i listen more to abba my sense of the world would be different no i think that's probably true and it's also true you can make the same case On football i think these are two big weaknesses in my life no i think football not liking football even though i love it i understand life without music is life not worth living part of The problem is i i'm just basically tone deaf and it's very difficult to communicate to someone what that actually feels like or is like as i think i've said before my father couldn't Understand it he believed that everybody could paint and everybody could play music and uh dedicated his 92 years to this slightly quixotic task of trying to convince non-musical Non-artistic people to do watercolours and compose music. I think it's possible, weirdly, that we are sort of different. We're kind of differently wired. And I think it's probably true. 80% of the world, music is central. 90% of the world, food is an incredibly important part of their lives, but not maybe 100%.
Alastair Campbell
I'm also a bit lame on food. I'm very lame on food i did ruthie rogers podcast this week and i admitted i'm really not into food i don't know why you're talking to me we had a very nice chat are your boys into music yet
Rory Stewart
Yet sasha's learning the trumpet at the moment and enjoying that and ivor really enjoys singing i mean he's got he's got to work a little bit more getting getting in tune but he loves belting Out june so i think there's hope there hope the next generation right now. Back to serious stuff. (Time 0:33:17)
US Security Umbrella
Trump's claim of US exploitation by European allies is historically inaccurate.
The US fostered this security arrangement for strategic power during the Cold War.
Transcript:
Rory Stewart
He's serious. Andy Mahadeo Belfast. Why are the mainstream media and European politicians afraid to push back against accusations of freeloading when the post World War Two agreement was that the US would provide security Umbrella? So let's start with that, because that's an important point. At the moment, what Trump is basically suggesting is that it was just US naivety and everybody's mooching off them and the Americans were paying all this money. What, of course, he forgets is that America did this deliberately so it could exercise power. It invested in NATO because it wanted to contain the Soviet Union. And it didn't want Europe to go weak at the knees or neutral towards the Soviet Union. They wanted Europe to be on the American side. And Eisenhower spoke explicitly about the US having that security responsibility. They didn't want De Gaulle to develop his own nuclear weapons. They wanted Europe to be dependent on US nuclear weapons. And you can see actually even today, in two examples, Ukraine and Syria, it's quite clear that Trump is saying two completely contradictory things. On the one hand, he seems to be saying, I'm an isolationist. I don't care what happens outside the US. Go ahead, you pay for it, we won't pay for it. But on the other hand, when people actually step up and offer to pay, he doesn't let them because he wants to have his cake and eat it. He wants to say, I'm not going to pay any money, but he also absolutely wants to be able to take Russia's side on Ukraine, which is why when Europe steps up and says, OK, we'll find $50 billion A year. Can we please buy American kit and keep the satellites going? He says no. And when Saudi, Qatar and Turkey step up in Syria and say, okay, you're saying you don't want to spend a single American dollar in Syria, you don't want American troops on the ground. Can we please provide the money? He won't let them do it. He puts sanctions in place to prevent it. Because in that case, he's taking a position against Syria, just as he's taking a position against Ukraine, while pretending to be isolationist and neutral. (Time 0:36:07)
Carney's Unconventional Path
Mark Carney became Prime Minister of Canada despite lacking traditional political experience.
His leadership could be threatened by Pierre Poilievre's rising popularity.
Transcript:
Alastair Campbell
Very interesting. Let's stick it over there. Heidi Legge, how does Mark Carney position himself when so many democratic nations are rejecting the liberal machine that seems to choose candidates further upstream? How does a candidate like Mark Carney stand out as his own person rather than a plant from the global elite? How can he show that he truly wants Canada to be wealthy?
Rory Stewart
Okay, well, I want you to answer this because you've been deep in Canada. But let me just do the little explainer to explain how weird it is. So it would not be conceivable in British politics for Mark Carney to do what he's just done. So Mark Carney was governor of the Bank of Canada, governor of the Bank of England, and successful banker. Mark Carney is, I guess, approximately 60. He hasn't been an elected MP. He ran to be prime minister without even being a member of parliament, right? He was just a grand public figure, be like Gary Lineker, suddenly deciding, you know, to run for leadership of the Labour Party without being an MP. And he has ended up not just winning the leadership, but becoming prime minister, and now is in pole position. And again, talk about luck in politics, right? If we'd been talking about this before Trump completely destroyed Pierre Polyarov's chances, it seemed like a hospital path. Yeah, sure, Mark, you can become the leader of the Liberal Party for a few weeks, but you're then 20 points behind. You'll go to defeat from Pierre Polyevre what the point health point of you doing a few weeks as prime minister and then being leader of the opposition um instead of which he's managed
Alastair Campbell
To pull all that off okay over to you Alistair. The question how does he position himself I think he does a a national version of what he's been doing in the party context Polyevre has been I mean up some of the polls Bruce Anderson was Telling us on the episode we did for members he was saying this is a Canadian pollster and strategist Some of the polls probably ever was 25 points ahead just a few weeks ago. And he's now well into single figures. We're now virtually within the margin of error. Would say take the messaging that has won himself this landslide in the leadership election and take that messaging into the national frame and part of that is about this is not about The liberal party this is not about bringing the whole of canada together we are facing a really strong powerful enemy i think the fact that he called it out what it is, and he linked Polly Everest, I thought very cleverly to Trump. You know, basically, you either stand up for Trump, or you stand up to Trump. I'm standing up to him. I think he positions himself as serious, grown up, experienced, not a politician. It becomes a strength that he says, I'm new to this game. I've just I know a lot about politics because I've worked in central bank. He's over. I'm not a politician. Polyever is a kind of lifelong, he exists to be a politician. And then he's got to find some, you know, good, chunky policy ideas that make people feel this guy can get stuff done. Look, you say that Polyever has crashed. He's not crashed. It's still, you know, what he will try to do is to make Carney part of the Liberal Party, global elite, all that stuff. And I'm not sure it's going to be very effective. We shall see. It's going to be very interesting. And I think it'll be soon. I think it's going to be, I think he won't hang around to call an election. (Time 0:38:05)
Democrats vs. Trump
Democrats should actively counter Trump's narratives instead of relying on traditional media.
They should embrace humor and online engagement to reach broader audiences.
Transcript:
Rory Stewart
And thank you for this, because it comes back to some themes you've been touching on the last few days. Alison Matthews, Glasgow Trip Plus member. Thank you for being a member of Trip. Where is the US opposition to Trump advance? I see the odd thing on social media, but nothing of significance. Where are the Democrats? Now, can I just begin with my framing on this, which relates to our conversation yesterday? Have entered this reality TV, social media world, which Trump has sensed that he can release other people. It's not just him doing it. Obviously, Musk has been given cover to do it. Vance has been given cover to do it. Donald J. Trump Jr. Has been given cover to do it. They're all rolling. And we'll see more and more from Pete Hesketh and others as they get going. And that's why he's brought in a lot of Fox News people into his central team. And I think that we don't quite understand how much this world is changing because we don't look enough at places like Russia. We still think that the way to respond is, you know, reasoned articles in the New York Times, whereas in fact, what's being created for better or for worse is a reality TV thing with an Enormous audience, particularly on Facebook, which dominates a lot of this, but also on Twitter, where what they want to see is you punch back. And in some ways, Kamala Harris and Tim Walz were at their best in the campaign when they were doing their own version of this, doing things like these guys are weird, viral videos, good Stuff with Saturday Night Live, mocking them back. And one of the questions for democratic politics is very disturbing, because if you, me, Keir Star everybody feel the only way we can fight back against sort of trumpian right is to as It were play them at their own game you turn democratic audiences into people sort of watching popcorn and thinking nothing's real these are all a bunch of bluffers but wow that was a
Alastair Campbell
Funny hit back and the whole thing becomes like watching a pro wrestling match i was yesterday at that thing you know remember a year ago now we did that thing at methodist hall with uh 1800 six formers well i did it i did it again solo yesterday and some fantastic questions but one of them actually was about whether there should be populism of the left and whether there's Anything that we can actually, people like me can actually learn from Trump. And that's something that I also discussed with Tommy Vita on Pod Save America this week. And the whole premise of him wanting to talk to me was actually, goes, absolutely agrees with Alison that the Democrats are frankly all over the place. There's no strategy for recovery. There's no analysis really going on. There's no, as far as I can tell, there's no formal review of what happened. And the leaders that are emerging, they're either the people that we've known forever, like Bernie Sanders or AOC or whatever, otherwise new names that are coming up. But it doesn't feel terribly, terribly organized. And what I said in answer to this question at the Methodist Hall, I said, if we define the kind of Trumpian way in Moises' name's three Ps, populism, polarization and post-truth, then We don't want to go down that road. We don't want to become, you know, a left-wing progressive version of that. But where we should, can and should learn from them is in relation to the incredible organizational skills that they've got, not least through the whole media ecosystem, think tankery And all that stuff. But also whether we like him or not, and you and I don't, Trump is in his own way, a genius communicator. Even if you strip away the lies and even if you strip away the nonsense and the bullshit and the bullying, and you may say, well, you can't strip that away because that's part of it, but Just technically to watch him as a communicator. Now, what is it about? So when we were talking about Matthew Barsen saying, go and help Labour ministers talk like human beings, whatever you think about Trump, there's something compelling about the way He communicates. Now, you can't sort of imitate that, but what you can take from that, what is it that he's got about it? And it's being interesting. It's being entertaining. It's about saying things that people don't necessarily expect. It's about having a very strong, powerful turn of phrase that commands attention. Now, he does it for bad, but you can use all of those factors for good. As you know, I'm full of praise for the way that Starm and Macron, Mertz and Tusk are handling what's going on now. But in terms of how they project and communicate to the public, I still think it feels a little bit last generation, not next generation. (Time 0:41:21)
New highlights added March 25, 2025 at 7:07 AM
Seeing Through the Spectacle
Focus on the substantive policy changes happening behind Trump's distracting rhetoric.
Don't get caught up in the daily dramas, but address the underlying power shifts.
Transcript:
Rory Stewart
It's the next generation that we've got to get on side for what's coming. Part of the problem is the risk of becoming sort of defenders of the status quo.
Alastair Campbell
That is absolutely right. And defenders of the status quo that we actually don't like and didn't create. That's the point. What's happening to the Democrats at the moment? There's a risk that they're defending a status quo for which they're not actually responsible. There is stuff wrong with the way government works. There is stuff wrong with institutions.
Rory Stewart
Be the reformers not the defenders exactly so you know we've had a question from anarchist sheep would we benefit from having our own version of doge now there's a classic question right Because i i get very very wound up understandably by people coming to me saying well yeah but you know isn't elon musk right isn't government inefficient well of course government's Inefficient you know you and i have worked in government we've torn our hair out about government there's a lot that's inefficient about government and we see it all the reformers, Not the defenders. And anybody goes into a busy hospital can immediately spot quite a lot of things going on around them that wouldn't be the way they'd manage it. How on earth do you say to people, look, okay, yes. And yes, it's also true that quite a lot of international development assistance was also misspent. But that doesn't mean doing this right. Doesn't mean a situation where we now have all the HIV AIDS medication currently stuck in ports with it expiring so that it can't be used to save lives. The same with vaccination on the most basic diseases. I was talking to a farmer in Zimbabwe who is now funding all the antiretroviral treatment for his own workforce out of his own pocket, because 35% of people have HIV AIDS. And Trump has stopped all of that. It's going to explosion across the world of this. We've seen it with Musk shutting down the Federal Drug Administration. I was talking to someone in the FDA. Shut down all the testing centers, including the basic food testing centers, and then have to reopen them. Fires, you know, nuclear controllers. We talked to Michael Lewis about this. This was his fifth risk. Then re-hires them. I mean, it's completely irresponsible, insane. You know, the other one we hear about, well, isn't it right that, you know, Europe should pay a bit more on defense? Yeah, sure. Let's say you had, for some reason, been, I don't know, supporting a charity, and you were supporting 50% of its income. And you wanted it to raise more of its own money and be less dependent on you, Alistair, right? Fair enough. But the way to do it is say, here is a five-year plan. I'm going to reduce every year. There's going to be a thing and you're going to raise up. Not, I'm stopping all funding now. Thank you. Whole thing collapses. And that's what reveals who they really are. They're not really trying to help Europe become self-sufficient. They're not giving them time to do it. They're just knocking them off the cliff. Your point about your Zimbabwean pharma and the HIV AIDS, I'm really struggling.
Alastair Campbell
Maybe there's some Americans who could help us try to understand this. Why are the former presidents so silent? I mean, George Bush, that was one of his biggest, the biggest parts of his legacy. And we all know what he thinks of Trump. You can see it on his face when he sits there in the organization, but he's just decided he's just going to sit it out and say nothing. I just wonder, would there be something very powerful if Biden, Obama, Clinton and Bush got together and warned the American people, this is unbelievably dangerous what's happening, We have to wake up?
Rory Stewart
Or do they just think, you know what, we're the past, people won't listen? I don't know. Answer is it depends how they do it and how smart they are and how alert to the modern media environment they are do it wrong and the story will be here's a bunch of elite has-beens do it with Real wit and inventiveness troll them back you could actually do a surprising amount of damage but the question is how how fleet-footed are these people going to be? My friend Greg Nugent, who's a very good sort of marketing guy, and he says we should stop calling it Doge and call it Dodge.
Alastair Campbell
As in dodgy as fuck. Because it is. It's totally, the whole thing is corruption. Scaramitch was right. They've opened the golden era of corruption. So Dodge, let's stop calling it Do We're going to call it Dodge. You've put your finger on something we're going to end on.
Rory Stewart
And I think it's so important. So what Peter Ponparantsev points out in Russia in 2000, and is the analogy, I think, with Trump today, is that the reality TV stuff, all the chat about invading Greenland and Canada Being the 51st state and all the noise creates Dodge. We're going to call it Dodge. A sort of pseudo debate. And it distracts you from what's really happening. So it creates a kind of illusion of a kind of democratic debate. Meanwhile, Congress is becoming completely irrelevant. And the really big questions, which you've just raised, Alistair, of power and money, happen offstage, completely opaque. All these fireworks are happening on social media. But what really is happening with Musk, with the data in the tax office, with subsidies, with personal relationships, with conflicts of interest, with Bitcoin. And that's what happened in Russia. All this stuff was happening on TV. And the journalists were like, I just can't question, what is happening in gas and oil? How's Abramovich working with Berezovsky? I thought Berezovsky owned this, now Abramovich owns this, now Putin's doing this and so I think that that's it let's keep trying to see the policy behind see what happens behind this
Alastair Campbell
Kind of illusion it's also why going back to our discussion on the main podcast this week about about China is why ultimately we have to train ourselves to have deeper and broader attention Spans. And sometimes just to say, oh, he said something really stupid again. Let's ignore it. Not play his game, not poke around the turd the whole time. Now, where you and I disagreed with Michael Wolfe, I don't agree and you don't agree with Michael that you just wait him out. You can't wait him out. You've got to fight him. But I think at the moment, this goes back to the question about the Democrats. If you fight on every single front that they're throwing out, all the chaff that they're throwing out there, you'll just you'll dissipate your energy, you'll dissipate your strategic Thinking. Trump every week, to resist talking about everything that he does, but to try to maintain an attention span on the things that actually beneath the surface are of even more lasting damage Than the absolute crap that he comes out with when he sits at his desk with his big marker pen.
Rory Stewart
And then the problem is, how do you know when it goes from being a performance and propaganda to reality? How do you spot that moment which people missed with Putin, where he goes from sounding like a ethno-nationalist saying he's going to take Ukraine to the moment where he actually begins Believing it and evades Ukraine? So how do we spot the moment (Time 0:46:00)
