Friedrich Merz, expected to be Germany's next Chancellor, wants independence from the US.
This reflects a shift in European politics, raising questions for the UK and its relationship with the US.
Transcript:
Lewis Goodall
And so Keir Starmer goes to Washington later this week to sit down with Donald Trump. And Britain wants the special relationship to endure. But we've just had the elections in Germany, where the new German Chancellor we expect to take over is saying he wants independence from the US. So, Europe with America or without? Welcome to the News Agents The News Agents. It's John. It's Emily. It's Lewis. And we are in Manchester ahead of our live show this evening. And we played that clip of Keir Starmer at the very top of the podcast. I mean, it's worth looking at as well because he's gripping the sheets of paper on which this speech is written for dear life as if I mustn't get a word wrong. And if I do, goodness knows what will happen.
Jon Sopel
It sort of looked rather terrifying, kind of hostage video that he was reading out loud. Yeah, because he's going off to Washington, we now understand, midweek, probably Wednesday, for a meeting with Donald Trump on Thursday. And everyone in the world and their dear parents is offering him advice on what to say and what not to say. And there is really only one thing to say. If Donald Trump has called Ukraine Zelensky a dictator who started Ukraine war, the first thing you do is say, well, that's wrong. But nobody can say that's wrong. Nobody can criticise Donald Trump. And so what they're doing is finding a form of words round it to reinforce Zelensky's status, to reinforce their support for him, maybe even show it with what they're now prepared to Spend in defence. But never, never criticise this deity figure, this godlike man, the man who puts himself on a fake cover of time as the king, at the centre of this whole row.
Emily Maitlis
There's something that George Orwell said about political figures who lie all the time, make everyone else liars too. And that is the thing that I kind of keep feeling about Trump at the moment. Such is the scale of the effect that Starmer said he's having on the global conversation. Such is his power. He is forcing political figures who, let's be honest, like Starmer, can't stand his politics and would love to do anything other than defend this guy, to have to defend his worldview And not even accept when he is lying and he is wrong and stated explicitly. And we're seeing this every week. I mean, I interviewed Bridget Philipson on my Sunday show for LBC yesterday. And although Starmer has said that Zelensky is not a dictator, they are so afraid that they won't go that step further and actually just say he's wrong. Listen to this. Is President Trump wrong to say that Ukraine started the war?
Jon Sopel
Well, the fact is that Russia started the war with their illegal invasion. So he's wrong. What the prime minister this week will be saying and discussing with the president on his visit is firstly, the-standing special relationship between our two nations and how we deepen Those ties of security, but how we as a country can provide the leadership that is necessary to secure the enduring peace. So any settlement will have to be, will have to have the backing of the Americans with that security guarantee. But the Prime Minister has also been clear that we need to play a bigger role in ensuring that peace can last.
Emily Maitlis
Education Secretary, forgive me it is an extremely simple question is president trump wrong to say that ukraine started the war and is he wrong to say that president zelensky is a dictator
Jon Sopel
Yes or no so the facts speak for themselves russia that was the start of the war president zelensky was elected by the ukrainian people lewis i'm not going for a job as your producer that's
Lewis Goodall
Good just as well just hit me out if i were if i were going for a job maybe there would be the labor minister slot on the show where they can't answer a straightforward question because of A fear of causing offense i mean it's every week there seems to be a new minister who comes on who can't answer a straightforward question. But look, I mean, like, they should get their own slot.
Emily Maitlis
I feel for them in a way in a sense that, I mean, if you think about it now, I mean, we had Peter Kyle refusing to say, confirm that the British government thought that the American invasion Of Greenland was a bad idea. We've had...
Jon Sopel
Lisa Nandy, who said, oh, she used this fantastic phrase, we need to dial it down. We need to take the heat out of conversations. And then Peter Mandelson, I mean, our actual ambassador, was doorstepped, and he just said that Trump's speech was interesting. Now, I understand that ambassadors have to walk a fine line, but he's not somebody who, in the past, has been afraid to call it out. And it just feels now like everyone's lost their spine.
Emily Maitlis
What I think is striking, though, is increasingly the divergence in tone that we're seeing, and you've alluded to it already, John, between the British government and several European Governments. So last night we had the German elections. We can maybe talk about the results in a little bit more detail. But Friedrich Merz, who almost certainly is going to be the next chancellor of germany from the cdu center-right party the party of angela merkel they do this amazing thing in germany They do it in scandinavian countries as well after on a on election night like can you imagine it in britain they get all the party leaders together in a studio and they they discuss the Election results and what might happen next like the coalition talks literally start on air that night. Never happened in Britain. They wouldn't be able to stand to be in the same bloody room as each other on election night. But Mertz comes out and starts to talk about the most extraordinary stuff, saying that it is unclear, he said, whether we will speak of NATO in its present shape by the time of NATO's June Summit, or we'll need to come up with an alternative. He said he's absolutely under no illusions about Trump, and that Germany and Europe needs independence from a United States who pretty much no longer cares about the fate of Europe. This would have been completely impossible and incredible to believe for an incoming German chancellor or any major European leader to say a month ago. That is the effect that Donald Trump. Starr was right about one thing, literally right. He has changed the conversation. He has changed it profoundly. And Europe is now talking about going its own way. Where does Britain go? (Time 0:00:46)
Starmer and Trump
Keir Starmer's upcoming meeting with Donald Trump has sparked much discussion.
Many are advising him on how to navigate Trump's controversial statements, particularly about Ukraine.
Transcript:
Lewis Goodall
It's Emily. It's Lewis. And we are in Manchester ahead of our live show this evening. And we played that clip of Keir Starmer at the very top of the podcast. I mean, it's worth looking at as well because he's gripping the sheets of paper on which this speech is written for dear life as if I mustn't get a word wrong. And if I do, goodness knows what will happen.
Jon Sopel
It sort of looked rather terrifying, kind of hostage video that he was reading out loud. Yeah, because he's going off to Washington, we now understand, midweek, probably Wednesday, for a meeting with Donald Trump on Thursday. And everyone in the world and their dear parents is offering him advice on what to say and what not to say. And there is really only one thing to say. If Donald Trump has called Ukraine Zelensky a dictator who started Ukraine war, the first thing you do is say, well, that's wrong. But nobody can say that's wrong. Nobody can criticise Donald Trump. And so what they're doing is finding a form of words round it to reinforce Zelensky's status, to reinforce their support for him, maybe even show it with what they're now prepared to Spend in defence. But never, never criticise this deity figure, this godlike man, the man who puts himself on a fake cover of time as the king, at the centre of this whole row. (Time 0:01:17)
Trump's Influence
Trump's pronouncements force other politicians to distort their own positions.
Politicians are hesitant to criticize Trump directly, even when he is clearly wrong.
Transcript:
Emily Maitlis
Something that George Orwell said about political figures who lie all the time, make everyone else liars too. And that is the thing that I kind of keep feeling about Trump at the moment. Such is the scale of the effect that Starmer said he's having on the global conversation. Such is his power. He is forcing political figures who, let's be honest, like Starmer, can't stand his politics and would love to do anything other than defend this guy, to have to defend his worldview And not even accept when he is lying and he is wrong and stated explicitly. And we're seeing this every week. I mean, I interviewed Bridget Philipson on my Sunday show for LBC yesterday. And although Starmer has said that Zelensky is not a dictator, they are so afraid that they won't go that step further and actually just say he's wrong. Listen to this. Is President Trump wrong to say that Ukraine started the war?
Jon Sopel
Well, the fact is that Russia started the war with their illegal invasion. So he's wrong. What the prime minister this week will be saying and discussing with the president on his visit is firstly, the-standing special relationship between our two nations and how we deepen Those ties of security, but how we as a country can provide the leadership that is necessary to secure the enduring peace. So any settlement will have to be, will have to have the backing of the Americans with that security guarantee. But the Prime Minister has also been clear that we need to play a bigger role in ensuring that peace can last.
Emily Maitlis
Education Secretary, forgive me it is an extremely simple question is president trump wrong to say that ukraine started the war and is he wrong to say that president zelensky is a dictator
Jon Sopel
Yes or no so the facts speak for themselves russia that was the start of the war president zelensky was elected by the ukrainian people lewis i'm not going for a job as your producer that's
Lewis Goodall
Good just as well just hit me out if i were if i were going for a job maybe there would be the labor minister slot on the show where they can't answer a straightforward question because of A fear of causing offense i mean it's every week there seems to be a new minister who comes on who can't answer a straightforward question. But look, I mean, like, they should get their own slot.
Emily Maitlis
I feel for them in a way in a sense that, I mean, if you think about it now, I mean, we had Peter Kyle refusing to say, confirm that the British government thought that the American invasion Of Greenland was a bad idea. We've had...
Jon Sopel
Lisa Nandy, who said, oh, she used this fantastic phrase, we need to dial it down. We need to take the heat out of conversations. And then Peter Mandelson, I mean, our actual ambassador, was doorstepped, and he just said that Trump's speech was interesting. Now, I understand that ambassadors have to walk a fine line, but he's not somebody who, in the past, has been afraid to call it out. And it just feels now like everyone's lost their spine. (Time 0:02:43)
Germany and the US
Friedrich Merz's statements signal a potential shift in Germany's relationship with the US.
He questions the future of NATO and emphasizes the need for European independence, reflecting Trump's impact on the political landscape.
Transcript:
Emily Maitlis
I think is striking, though, is increasingly the divergence in tone that we're seeing, and you've alluded to it already, John, between the British government and several European Governments. So last night we had the German elections. We can maybe talk about the results in a little bit more detail. But Friedrich Merz, who almost certainly is going to be the next chancellor of germany from the cdu center-right party the party of angela merkel they do this amazing thing in germany They do it in scandinavian countries as well after on a on election night like can you imagine it in britain they get all the party leaders together in a studio and they they discuss the Election results and what might happen next like the coalition talks literally start on air that night. Never happened in Britain. They wouldn't be able to stand to be in the same bloody room as each other on election night. But Mertz comes out and starts to talk about the most extraordinary stuff, saying that it is unclear, he said, whether we will speak of NATO in its present shape by the time of NATO's June Summit, or we'll need to come up with an alternative. He said he's absolutely under no illusions about Trump, and that Germany and Europe needs independence from a United States who pretty much no longer cares about the fate of Europe. This would have been completely impossible and incredible to believe for an incoming German chancellor or any major European leader to say a month ago. That is the effect that Donald Trump. Starr was right about one thing, literally right. He has changed the conversation. He has changed it profoundly. And Europe is now talking about going its own way. Where does Britain go?
Jon Sopel
I mean, there's a very real politic reason why I think Mertz is leaning into this now, because CDU, his party, has gained the largest number of seats, but he's still only got 29% of the Vote. It's their second lowest share of the vote, I think, since post-war days. And the second party in line, as you will probably be aware of by now, is the AFD. They have what's called a firewall, which means all the main parties refuse to work with this far-right nationalist sort of Nazi-inflected party of the right, which is now second, In other words, in opposition. And so what will end up happening is Mertz will go into a coalition, we think, by all the looks of things, with the socialists, the party that Olaf has just now basically lost, given his Worst election result to, and he will probably have to quit. But I think a move like this allows Mertz the room to work with a party of the left, because it is starting to show, particularly when he's sort of, you know, bending over backwards in terms Of immigration to say he's going to be much much more hardline on immigration which the left won't like this is something that i think the socialists will approve of and they will want To see a return to something that looks like a european you know backbone yeah (Time 0:05:36)
Merz's Strategy
Merz's stance on independence from the US could be a strategic move to appeal to both left and right.
It allows him to collaborate with left-leaning parties while appearing tough on issues like immigration.
Transcript:
Lewis Goodall
I think that there's something very interesting about mer's position and i think again i was wondering on the train coming up to manchester today i was thinking what are the different Stories that we need to cover on the podcast today and you think well it's ukraine's third anniversary of the invasion it is uh starmer going to washington german elections they're All the same story trump is at the nexus of all three of these but on the question of what merz does i was really struck as well Lewis, by the kind of the fury he felt. I mean, he'd taken a lot of heat over doing a deal on immigration or not, you know, with the AFD in terms of getting their vote.
Jon Sopel
He wouldn't call it a deal. He'd just say that they voted in the same way.
Lewis Goodall
Exactly. But his fury at what Elon Musk has done in interfering in the German elections, which he says was akin to what Russia did in the 2016 presidential elections in the US, is really remarkable. And the extent to which, I mean, OK, Trump is welcoming, you know, the idea that Friedrich Merz is going to be the next chancellor. He's loving the idea that the right are in power and Trump and Musk are pushing this.
Jon Sopel
I actually thought when he was commending the Conservatives he hadn't understood what had happened because this is where it gets so interesting. We've seen Elon Musk directly vocally back the AFD. Repeatedly. Repeatedly and you know all the C. Carl's stuff seems to be slightly leaning into that from Musk.
Emily Maitlis
It turns out Germans might not like that very much for obvious reasons. Yeah, funny, isn't it? It's the Roman salute, guys. It's the Romans, exactly.
Jon Sopel
Yeah, Steve Bannon sort of copying the... Anyway, we'll get into that later. But there was Trump actually saying, well done to the Conservatives, and assuming that that was presumably the same sort of area that musk had liked or else it shows a diversion between
Emily Maitlis
The two in terms of what they want to see the direction they want to see germany going well i think um focusing on what mert said about musk is spot on i mean his actual quote saying look at These recent interventions by elon musk interventions from washington no less dramatic, drastic and brazen from those from Moscow. We are massively under pressure from both sides. That is, again, that's not something he said in the heat of the campaign. That's what he said on television last night, cognizant that he is likely to be the next German Chancellor, putting Moscow and Washington on a moral and political equivalence, saying That they are equally likely to interfere and spread misinformation in a German election. This is remarkable language and rhetoric. And I think that one thing we are likely to see, assuming Mertz can put together a coalition with, as you say, Emily, the SPD in a junior role, as you say, Schultz, who has tended throughout His chancellorship to be a little bit more equivocal and sort of try and straddle and try and sort of maintain some relations with Moscow a little bit more and was a bit more sceptical About kind of European autonomy. You're likely to see, I think, Mertz and the SPD replacement, Boris Pistorius as leader of the SPD. Whose defence comes from a defence position. Comes from a defence background, be a lot more hawkish. So if they can put together a coalition which can endure, a two-party coalition, I think you are likely to see the resumption of that Franco-German motor at the centre of Europe pushing For something Macron has long said he wanted, but which Schultz has resisted, European strategic autonomy in the face of what we're seeing from Washington.
Lewis Goodall
So there are a lot of questions that arise from that about how easy it's going to be to deliver. When you've got sort of Germany at the one hand saying, well, we're not going to be part of a defence force in Ukraine. You've got Italy now under Maloney kind of not wanting to upset Trump. And so to be with Trump, you've got sort of Spain and Portugal saying, oh, don't look at us, please. For God's sake, you know, we don't want to spend two and a half percent on our defence. You know, Britain wouldn't want to see any European defence body under the control of the EU, because where does that leave Britain? There are huge, structural, boring questions that would have to be worked out. If there is going to be some kind of NATO replacement or a European version of NATO with the Americans outside.
Emily Maitlis
For Marx to be floating there. Yeah, I know. You know, it has been the pillar of West German, at least, West German security since the end of the war. And for, as I say, an incoming German chancellor to be floating the idea that NATO may not be the vehicle for its security. (Time 0:08:24)
German Defense
Germany's low defense spending is linked to their reluctance to deploy peacekeepers.
They prefer supporting Ukraine's self-defense rather than direct military involvement.
Transcript:
Jon Sopel
I mean, it is worth noting that Germany spends a pitiful amount on defence at the moment. It's been spending more, though, to be fair. For historic reasons, it has been quite low. And I guess the reason that they're saying we want to spend more on defence and we don't want to put peacekeepers in kind of ties the circle. In other words, we want to give more to Ukraine to defend itself because we don't want to put people in there. And I was being somebody who was pretty senior in government until recently, who was questioning Keir Starmer's sort of pledge of peacekeepers, you know, in Ukraine. And this person just said, what's a peacekeeper? What is peacekeeper when you're facing Russian soldiers? What is a peacekeeper when there is a skirmish, when somebody has to actually, you know, defend something? As soon as you start defending, you are a soldier. This person thought it was the stupidest idea ever. And I wonder whether, you know, I mean, Starm has kind of said it and presumably has to go along with it if it comes to that. But I think a lot of the European countries now are thinking, we don't actually want to engage in something that we're calling a peacekeeper but is really our troops you know our young
Emily Maitlis
Men and women on the front line against russia i mean in fairness to germany i mean although their their military has historically been smaller they have been actually the second biggest Contributor to ukraine in terms of military spending because their economy is just bigger and there is a lot of talk and i think this is where mertz's election, again, if he can construct That coalition, and it is still a big if, because the SPD are wounded and they're battered, and they actually disagree outside of the defence sphere. They disagree with Mertz about a lot of stuff, particularly about immigration and about deregulation, all that sort of stuff. But if he can construct a coalition which works, then Mertz suddenly is a voice within Europe who has some energy and who is more, as I say, more hawkish on defence. And there is a lot of talk at the moment within Europe about the prospect of maybe issuing European-wide defence bonds in order to finance new military spending, new military rearmament. And I think Starmer and Mertz actually now could be a potent combination because they both have. They actually now, again, if that coalition can be constructed, they actually have quite a lot in common, right? They're both leaders of, they could be leaders of a sort of stable coalition within their countries. They have mandates which feel decisive but brittle. They've got the populist right breathing down their neck. But they also potentially don't need to have an election until 2029, when they can wait out the Trump period in office, they can hope to wake out this sort of upsurge in the populist right. And if they can work together to try and lead Europe through this very, very difficult period, then there is the potential to actually, I mean, every crisis is a tremendous opportunity. They could potentially seize it. (Time 0:12:52)
Starmer and Merz
Starmer and Merz, with potential long terms, could reshape Europe's future.
They share similar challenges and goals, including navigating the rise of the populist right.
Transcript:
Jon Sopel
You're literally saying what Starmer said just now.
Emily Maitlis
But I wonder whether he, think the difference is, is I wonder the extent to which I think at some point Starmer is going to have to get off the fence and decide strategically which way he Goes, whether he throws in his lot with Europe or he tries to stick with Trump.
Jon Sopel
No, not this week. This week is going to be painful, I think, to listen to, because whatever happens between the two of them over the jelly and ice cream and the prawn cocktail, there will almost certainly Be, you know the normal communique sent out saying we've had a very good talk and i'm going to come in and defend those without backbone which is what you just the shivers looking for a
Lewis Goodall
Spine to crawl up exactly the fact of the matter is that if bridget phillipson had made headlines with you lewis yesterday i understand it of course you know where does that get it you You know you have got apparently a negotiation that's sort of starting to take shape on the future of ukraine and what happens and god knows three years on from that dreadful day when 150,000 Russian troops went over the border. You know, if you are in that position now, then you are going to not say anything that upsets apple carts or whatever. I know it sounds absurd.
Jon Sopel
It sounds exactly how diplomacy works, except we already know that diplomacy doesn't really work. When Theresa May got that first meeting with Trump, you know, memorably, he held her hand and sort of led her down the path. And it was, isn't it wonderful, the UK Prime Minister, the first one. And then as soon as, you know, she didn't look like she was sort of getting stuff done at home, he ditched her. And he turns to Boris Johnson. Boris Johnson comes in. They swap cell phone numbers and Boris Johnson still doesn't get the the trade deal and so starmer he sort of hails as a very nice man and all the rest of it but i will guarantee you we will Not get what we want from america under trump that will not happen and the only person actually who is now speaking out who is showing backbone about this issue is one Mike Pence the guy That you know his guys attempted to murder who talked about the real to describing a special relationship you're describing exactly that Britain is the supplicant in all always yeah
Emily Maitlis
But there's a difference between being a supplicant isn't there when you still have a roughly aligned values and the difference now is we don't have a line of values he's a psychopath
Jon Sopel
John that's the point it's fine to be the junior partner where you broadly think that things are going the right way. If you're dealing with somebody who calls one of your allies... I agree with you totally. I think to call him a psychopath is just name-calling.
Lewis Goodall
It doesn't get you anywhere in dealing with what he's doing. There is an Asian pivot going on. He does want Europe to step up and do more. Those are perfectly respectable positions that Barack Obama outlined, and I know not in the same lurid terms, in 2011 when he was talking about Europe had to do more and we have to pivot To Asia because that's where the future is going to be.
Jon Sopel
You're right, I'm going to retract that and I'm not going to say psychopath because we're in Manchester. I'm going to say psychopath.
Emily Maitlis
Sorry about that. Yeah, where did path come from? I know. You were psychopaths. I know. I'm so embarrassed. So you should be. See, I would just phrase it slightly differently. Rather than backbone, I think that European leaders right now are actually divided into two camps. And rather than being about courage, I think it's about realism. And I think it's about being clear-eyed about what they're seeing. And I think the truth is that there are still European leaders and still way too many people who are deluded about what Trump is, what Trump believes, and because they cannot accept, Because it's almost too chilling and too disturbing and too appalling to accept. And too inconvenient. And too inconvenient. It's just really tough to have to face up to that. No, but too inconvenient and too unimaginable to accept that maybe America, this pillar of our security, may no longer be on our side or at least be indifferent to us. I think there are leaders who recognise that and there are those who don't and cling to old realities. And I think that's, it's yet to be seen exactly where Starmer sits on that spectrum.
Lewis Goodall
Yeah, I think there is one interesting structural thing that makes Britain different from the rest of Europe, and that is the Five Eyes Agreement, which is real. I think that the special relationship is so much hot air for most of the time when people talk about it. You can see how often america imposes its will on britain and britain can't do much about it on the five eyes agreement which is the intelligence national security sharing of information Where gchq in cheltenham does a huge amount of the heavy lifting for the u.s intelligence agencies that is real how long does it endure well that's a big question if we think Trump and
Emily Maitlis
Putin are working? That is a huge question.
Jon Sopel
You just said it. Five Eyes is about intelligence sharing. Why would you share intelligence now with a man who thinks that Putin is just fine? You've already seen Elon Musk ask departments to provide details of the work they're doing. And one of the biggest questions about that is whether they're going to give away stuff that is classified, because they don't trust their own government. They don't trust, I don't know if Elon Musk is considered government, but for these purposes, he is. And surely then Brits are thinking, why on earth would we be doing deals of security, of national security, which our safety depends with a guy who's in bed with Putin. I mean, I just think in diplomatic terms, the days of Ferraro Rocher chocolates are over. You know, we're not tinkling the brandy glasses in these lovely mahogany studies anymore. It's not how it's working anymore. We've just got to wise up to that. (Time 0:15:27)
Musk's Edict
US federal workers were asked to list five weekly achievements or face termination.
This demand sparked resistance from some agency heads, highlighting a power struggle with Elon Musk.
Transcript:
Emily Maitlis
So, Lewis, what were your five achievements last week? Well, I mean, once again, just getting through the week with you, John, is a great achievement. Although now you're going to be my producer on Sunday, we'll be seeing even more of each other.
Lewis Goodall
A lot more of each other. So, federal workers in the US all received an email at the weekend saying, you've got to list the five things you did in the past week in bullet points. Five's a lot, isn't it? For the Department of Government deficiency. And apparently the threat is if you don't answer this email by midday on Monday, consider yourself fired.
Emily Maitlis
The newsagent production team would not be able to make that. They would be gone. In the pump house by four, I think, would probably be on every single bullet point.
Lewis Goodall
But what's interesting is it's turning into a battle between Musk, who's put out this kind of macho email with his pimply Praetorian guard getting ready to enforce it. And you've got different government heads, the head of the Pentagon, head of the Justice Department saying, screw you, we're not going to answer that. And telling employees to ignore it.
Jon Sopel
I think it's pretty fucking dark, actually. I was talking to somebody who's a federal employee who's also an employer. He has a team of about 30 and they've had this edict from Musk and he said I'm just telling my people to wait to see it out, not respond yet. Compile your five bullet points, don't send anything but there are security concerns because anything that they say obviously implicates whatever the department is doing in terms Of national security. And this person said, and I should say that they've refused to talk to me on email or WhatsApp anymore. They only want to use signal. They said that that's how they're communicating in their department now. They're not using any government computers. So the US government department is just going to signal. They're not using government computers and they're not having any conversations on email. The younger workers are terrified that they might say the wrong thing or be reported by some MAGA insider for saying the wrong thing. And this person said, our language has changed. We don't use words like inclusion anymore. We don't talk about diversity. All the pronouns have been struck off. This is obviously overlapping the DEI stuff. And there's an email address that has been put out where the workers are asked to spy on their colleagues. They've got no idea who's on the other end of the email, but they talk about none of this on anything that is related to the US government. And so this person said, there is a climate of fear now. And they described the moment where, you know, you're meant to have the new president's picture up in the office, this row of three pictures, and they've taken down the Biden ones and Waiting for the Trump ones, and the Trump pictures hadn't arrived. And so they had this big discussion in the office and said, well, we've got to have something in there. And they were like, no, no, no, we can't, because we've got to wait for the official ones. And then this person said, we've got to put a picture of our president in there, even if we haven't got the official one, because if someone walks past and sees that that is empty, they Will assume that we are anti-MAGA or anti-Trump, and that will be reported back. Now... The Soviet Union's alive and well. It is. I mean, the of the most right-wing government actually adopting things that feel like they've come out of Stasi, East Germany, is one too far. But you've been to those countries where they have pictures of the great leader in every single cafe, in every single department, in every single office government building. These are the conversations that they're literally having. They are alive and well in modern-day (Time 0:22:50)
Climate of Fear
Federal employees are increasingly fearful, altering their language and behavior to avoid suspicion.
Some worry about lacking even official portraits of the president, fearing repercussions.
Transcript:
Emily Maitlis
America. Buildings often have presidential portraits on them, don't they?
Jon Sopel
Well, you don't normally have discussions about if we don't have our official one up on time, will somebody come and write a nasty email?
Emily Maitlis
The thing is, did you see him at CPAC? People listening might have seen him at CPAC. I mean, he was sat there, you know, with those sunglasses on, barely able to get a word out. And I was just looking at him thinking this is a man who more and more feels like he is just not in control of anything he's doing have you seen that he said this morning Musk has tweeted this Morning saying this was just a ruse just to check these people were even through a chainsaw yeah and he feels to me as if day by day he is whatever the nature of the relationships is with Trump and he still seems to be lauding him, the fact that you have got people, including, you know, Patel and others, starting to push back from within the federal government does start To, I think, tell you something about this guy's authority, and the extent to how much road he might have to run to keep pulling capers like this.
Lewis Goodall
Yes, I think there is an interesting question around that. But you talk about Patel, Kash Patel is the new director of the FBI. And yeah, he has pushed back over Musk's edict. But Kash Patel has just had his deputy appointed. Kash Patel is an uber Trump loyalist who's been made head of the FBI. The deputy is a guy called Dan Bongino, who was a talk show host, obviously. So at the top of his programme, just like we have, this podcast is brought to you by HSBC opening up World of Opportunity. His show starts from the NYPD to the Secret Service to behind the microphone, taking the fight to the radical left and the putrid swamp. That's the start of his show every day. And we think we have difficult host reads. And you just think this is a man who is meant to be impartially in charge of delivering justice in the US today. The FBI is becoming Donald Trump's enforcement arm. And just as you say, Emily, that there are employees who are frightened that they might not have a portrait on the wall. If you're on the wrong side of Donald Trump now, dangerous place to be.
Jon Sopel
Yeah, I mean, I was speaking to another person who said they had a USAID person in the office now fired. They were working on humanitarian disaster relief. In other words, exactly the kind of stuff that Trump pretends to be interested in when it's affecting North Carolina. There's another person from the CDC, as in the... Extenters for disease control.... Can't even do pandemic surveillance, right? So yes, isn't it great that we're getting this really efficient government where they've no longer got people with expertise in nuclear capability, they've no longer got pandemic Surveillance capability, they've no longer got humanitarian disaster relief capability. We're saving all this money until something goes completely badly wrong. This (Time 0:26:10)
FBI Politicization
Trump's actions are transforming the FBI into his personal enforcement arm.
This raises serious concerns about the politicization of law enforcement and the rule of law.
Transcript:
Emily Maitlis
Is what I mean when we started the show. What I said about Trump making everyone into liars is that everyone has to pretend. You know, if this was another country, what you're talking about with the FBI, John, we know what we'd call it. We know what we'd call it. But you've got to have, we've all got to pretend in Europe and British government and others all got to pretend that this is all a normal US administration and it's all fine and there aren't Really quite dark serious questions to ask. And frankly, you know, most governments around Europe are having to look the other way. NBC did a calculation.
Lewis Goodall
They reckon there are now 20 senior Trump administration officials whose background was Fox News. They've come from Fox directly into government as if that is the qualifier for being in a serious position of authority. So all Donald Trump does is watch Fox News, and they've got all the jobs. His favourite people.
Jon Sopel
I mean, it makes sense, right? Because Roger Ailes, famously the man who kind of put the, you know, rocket up Fox News, created Fox News, came from working with Bush, with Reagan, with the Republican leaders. I mean, Fox News was always actually meant to be a breeding ground for a revolution. And in some ways, that has now come about. You know, it's come full circle.
Lewis Goodall
We will be back in a moment. This is The News Agents. (Time 0:28:53)
German Election Results
Germany's far-right AFD party achieved its best result since World War II, fueled by younger voters.
Despite a fragmented political landscape, the center has held, rejecting the AFD.
Transcript:
Emily Maitlis
So a few things before we go. Such is the importance of all of the kind of grand strategic stuff that Mertz has been saying. We haven't really even talked properly about the German election result itself, which is probably going to be one of the biggest elections this year. Important for Germany itself as well. And all the speculation had obviously been about the AFD. The alternative for Deutschland, this party, far-right, hard-right party, believes in the mass expulsion of immigrants, including German citizens, talked about getting closer To Russia again, wants to bring back nuclear power, you know, hard-right party. And they did do well. I mean, they were expected to do well. They got their best result ever. They got about 20.5%. They went from fifth to second place. They dominate in the East, but they did elsewhere as well. What was really interesting, we saw the same phenomenon we've been seeing in other elections across Europe, which is actually they did especially well with younger voters. So they were actually came top among voters who were 25 to 34. At the same time, it is worth saying as well that Die Linke, which is a sort of hard left party, also was resurrected and did extremely well, largely off the back of a kind of TikTok social Media ad campaign with 18 to 24. So it's mixed. But what you can definitely see is a big fragmentation, especially among younger voters who are not interested in the old mainstream centrist parties, which, as I say, is happening All over Europe.
Jon Sopel
And there's a really interesting in that, which is between gender and the young men's AFD vote is higher than the national average. Their left wing vote is also above average, as you were saying, the De Linca is hard left, the sort of former East German left. But the young women's AFD vote is much, much lower than average. It is 14% versus 21 to the men. And the-wing vote for women way higher, 34% to nine. I mean, it does, it sort of adds up in the sense that we've been talking a lot about the sort of the bro vote and the masculinity vote, and maybe the toxic masculinity vote and the podcast Bro vote. And maybe that is all having an effect in Germany in the same way as it is in the US. But the women are not going for AFD. The young women are not going for the AFD. Lewis is right, they're rejecting the mainstream parties, but they're going hard left.
Lewis Goodall
I've read some commentary this morning suggesting that actually, well, yeah, but this is the high watermark for the AFD. They can't really go any higher than 20%. I just think, look at France, you know, since the Front National became the Rassemblement National, they do keep rising. And, you know, it is the most complacent attitude on earth to just say oh yeah but they can't get any higher than this so everything's fine.
Jon Sopel
The big question really is how long that firewall lasts because you've got a party in second place now one in five Germans have voted for the parties now 84% turnout which is astonishing And then you've suddenly got to ask yourself a really unpalatable question which is well for how long can you keep ignoring the party in second place?
Emily Maitlis
And the best result for the German far right since the second world war not a happy sentence for all sorts of reasons and they really are I mean you mentioned the RN in France John I mean Actually the Rassemblement National have actually cut ties with the AFD because they think that the AFD is too extreme and the AFD really is. We talk about it sometimes people say, can you really say they're far right? I mean, there are members of the AFD who have been designated as basically actual neo-Nazis, right? So we're talking about a pretty extreme party, albeit it has, of course, like all parties, different, you know, more moderate wings and so on. But it's an extremist party by any stretch of the imagination. I mean, by German security forces, they're the ones calling it extreme elements. Exactly. So, I mean, look, I suppose there's two ways to look at it, aren't there? One is, you can say, the centre is wounded in Germany, but it has held. You know, one in five voters, that means four in five voters rejected the AFD. They knew that no other party would work with them. And when you consider the backdrop to these elections, an economy which hasn't grown in four years, the legacy of Merkel's acceptance of one million refugees, asylum seekers into Germany, which has undoubtedly, at least to some extent, contributed to a pretty parlous security atmosphere within Germany, these terrorist attacks that we've been seeing. You can argue that given that backdrop, it's actually not a bad result for the centre. But in the long term, of course, what is the net result of this election going to be? You're going to see what always happens in Germany for all of the sound and the fury, basically a centrist coalition with a slightly different flavour, which is basically what you always Get. You're going to have a centre-right party leading rather than a centre-left party. With the party that just lost.
Jon Sopel
Still enough. And that's just the electoral system.
Emily Maitlis
That's how it works. And so Mertz's task, again, that comparison I made with Starmer his task really important if he cannot show if he cannot deal with some of these really deep-seated economic problems That he has inherited then he is going to and cultural sensitivities as well then clearly the AFD from the outside may be in a position to grow yet further we'll be back well we're going
Jon Sopel
To go on stage now but then we'll be back. Tomorrow. I need to get changed. You need to have a wash. That's what you need. Well, you need to stop wearing a...
Lewis Goodall
It doesn't sound like a stink. You need to stop wearing a jumper which says B on it. A grade I never received. Yeah, because you all got a C. One day, hey? One day. Keep aspiring. Because you've always got C's and D's. (Time 0:30:12)
